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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
inthethickofit19 · 02/06/2020 07:27

Thanks BCF that doesn't sound too bad actually!

moonlight1705 · 02/06/2020 08:42

I am on the first FD of the week and already am feeling hungry. We had a bbq with my sister and BIL last night and although I was sensible then I still felt so full. Today my stomach is feeling ever so empty. Smile

So plenty of water and tea and try to concentrate on work when there is lovely sunshine and garden outside.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 09:43

Good luck, moonlight and any other Tuesday fasters

OP posts:
emcla · 02/06/2020 10:56

I’m on a fd too, after an overindulgent long weekend Blush

Good luck fasters.

downcherrytreelane · 02/06/2020 13:01

Last week did not go well, I didn't manage to have any FD as it was just a very stressful week. I didn't eat too terribly yet I managed to put on 3lbs? I'm worrying that I gained weight so quickly because I lost it too quickly from 5:2? Does that make sense? It is not my TOTM so it is not water retention either. I just feel like gaining 3lbs in a week is not normal, especially when I didn't overeat that much.

I started this week off well with a FD yesterday.

harriethoyle · 02/06/2020 13:04

Hi gang, I'm joining @moonlight1705 and @emcla in today's FD. Doing another on Thurs and a mini in Sat as I have to do a long journey so I figured I might as well make the time in the car work for me... I'll skip breakfast and have a light lunch and a ham sandwich for tea...

Have had a hard boiled egg on toast for lunch today and fish and greens on the menu for tea tonight. Let's do this!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 15:22

Good luck, emcla, Harriet

DowncherryIf you weighed after an FD, it would be on an empty stomach, so you'd probably be slightly heavier anyway after a couple of NFDs

A graph of loss on 5:2 looks like a sawtooth function, but rending downwards.

Impossible to gain 3lb fat in a week - that would need about 9,000 calories over TDEE
Some of your previously lost weight would be water weight, which you have partly regained.

You probably ate more than you realise last week, but it's only a temporary blip:
usually a mix of undigested food and retained water due to excess carbs, heat, exercise etc
Weight can vary naturally from day to day

Stay focused this week, be sensible on NFDs, then a good dump and FDs should zap that blip

OP posts:
Singasonga · 02/06/2020 19:15

Coming up to my FD meal. Actually found today not too bad at all, to the point that I even helped the family heat up a pizza for lunch and didn't feel the slightest bit tempted by it. I really hope this isn't a one-off.

Weigh-in tomorrow morning. I've decided to track weekly, the day after my first FD.

NathanNathan · 02/06/2020 19:58

I finished the 8 week BSD last Wednesday. I knew I would find it hard to 5:2 but understand that I can't just go back to as I was before or I will put weight back on. I knew I would have trouble adjusting as I've always had problems with binges.

I managed one day to TDEE on Thursday, then one fast day on Friday, then two days to TDEE on Saturday and Sunday.

Yesterday I tried to do a fast day and completely spiralled into a whole large packet of rice crackers and some cake. Today I was meant to be on a TDEE day. Again I've spiralled into several slices of toast, several slices of cake.

Any advice on how to be more successful would be really appreciated.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 21:06

Have you closed the kitchen now, Singa ?

Nathan BSD is 800 cals but with daily low carb - you kept to that rule during the 8 weeks?
Transition to more "normal" eating can be tricky

Your problem from what you've described eating is carbs
I recommend that you continue with 5:2 and aiming for TDEE on NFDs,
but return to Mosely's daily low carb:

  • Cut out all carby junk completely, also bread, cake and rice cakes,
    i.e. all starches, even healthy ones

  • Have protein every meal, plenty of veg, peas / beans / lentils, also natural Greek yoghurt or Skyr

  • On NFDs you can optionally have 1 portion low sugar fruit,
    e.g. have berries or an apple or pear, but not banana, pineapple or mango
    but only as part of a meal with protein, not on its own

  • Roughly plan each NFD in advance, say 3-4 meals and NEVER snack between meals

After that low crab month, you can gradually bring back healthy carbs in stages

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 21:07

low crab carb Grin

OP posts:
NathanNathan · 02/06/2020 21:17

Thank you BigChoc I really appreciate your reply.

I did stick to 800 low carb for 7 weeks.

Very clear what I should next! I think I relaxed too much too soon.

Singasonga · 02/06/2020 21:30

Kitchen is indeed closed at 463, Big Choc. Feeling okay and drinking a cup of herb tea.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 21:47

Well done, Singa

Good luck, nathan

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 02/06/2020 23:02

Wow Nathan. Sticking to the BSD for 8 weeks is incredible. I’ve been fasting for years, but there’s no way I’d have the will power to do that. I’m sure with the support of this thread you’ll be able to channel that determination to successfully balancing your NFDs.

It was my first FD of the week today after 4 NFD. I’ve managed limit my alcohol intake on those NFD. My stomach is flatter and my face is definitely getting thinner.

I just need to keep on going.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2020 23:16

Well done on your FD, Maz
Excellent shape and alcohol NSVs too
Stay focused amd you'll smash your goal !

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 03/06/2020 06:56

Fell asleep before I could update, ended the day on 560 so not too bad at all.

Hope you had a good day @harriethoyle and @singasonga

Upsidedownrightnow · 03/06/2020 09:28

@NathanNathan wow you did 7 weeks of only 800cals each day, how much weight did you loose?

NathanNathan · 03/06/2020 09:46

I did! I have a lot to lose, and was worried about my internal fat and insulin resistance so I took the more extreme end of the Moseley diets :) I always planned to only do 8 weeks as recommended, then made it to 7 and took the decision that that was enough. It did amazing things to reset my hunger levels, almost completely took away the need to snack, and I was eating very very badly before.

I started at 15st 11 and got to 14st 6 in 7 weeks. I'm 5ft 10 so still another 2 stone to go at least to edge into the healthy BMI weight.

Upsidedownrightnow · 03/06/2020 09:51

Wow that's amazing results well done 😀 you must be very determined to stick to it. What would you eat on a noanl day of 800 cals?

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2020 10:18

Well done on your FD, Moonlight

Congratulations on your BSD / Fast800 SV, Nathan
You were able to change habits for 7 weeks
Now is the transition stage where you keep to the same Mediteranean low carb rules, but increase the calories to standard 5:2

Upside The key to weeks of daily 800 cals is that it must be low carb
It is a VLCD with very strict rules about what to eat

No sugary treats or alcohol whatsoever; also no starches - potato, pasta, rice etc
So you eat protein, veg, beans / peas / lentils, with some unflavoured Greek or Skyr yoghurt and v small portions of nuts / seeds
Very limited fruit

It's 3 small meals per day, optionally 2 slightly larger ones at the weekend
This is an example BSD plan from Mosely for the first couple of days:

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals
OP posts:
emcla · 03/06/2020 10:19

Very inspiring Nathan. Well done.

I’m reading a book called fat logic which is very interesting. Not overly scientific. So far it’s as simple as reducing calories to lose weight.

Good luck to anyone fasting today.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2020 10:40

Calories are dominant, emcla
but the type of calories has different effects, especially on people who are insulin-resistant / have been overweight for a long time

Some calories are not filling at all and / or provide little nourishment
So except for the tiny minority with iron willpower, it is important to choose the type of calories that will keep you feeling satisfied for longer

Also, low cal junky diets can lose in the very shortterm, but they keep or even worsen bad habits,
so regain is rapid as soon as the diet ends.

This is a classic cause of yo-yo dieting and poor health

OP posts:
harriethoyle · 03/06/2020 10:56

I had a good day @moonlight1705 thank you - finished on 486! And slept like the DEAD last night which is unlike me on a fast day... I usually struggle to get over and wake early. So 11 hours straight (even missed my morning coffee being brought in!) was amazing...

Singasonga · 03/06/2020 12:20

Hello all. Had a very encouraging first 5:2 weigh-in this morning after yesterday's FD, and I seem to have dropped all the bloat I'd accumulated after my DH's birthday feast. As this is what pushed me into deciding that Something Must Be Done, I am feeling both re-motivated and resolute.

Now to work on the actual fat I've gained!