5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

@BigChocFrenzy, I accidentally said that I'm on 1500 on a previous post, but I've always been on 1200. My fitness pal app recommends 1200 according to my height and weight. But I can get extra calories on non fasting days, if I burn some off. Today I went over by 300 calories so I had to excerise. That's been my intake for the 5 nf days. The fasting days, I stick to 500, I don't off set extra calories through excerise. Does that sound okay? I'm still new at all this.

Hey everyone,

So yesterday I did a mini fast and ended up on 1000cals. Today I tried to do similar and ate so much!

On my non fast days I can have around 1700 cals but I find it so difficult.

I'm just wondering if some of you could give me an idea of what you eat for a whole day on a NFD.

I am also thinking perhaps I normally get away with eating more as I workout more.

Do you guys think cardio or strength training is better for dropping weight? Or both?

I can get a free trail to les Mills or just do things at home myself but I think I need to commit more to exercise.

Morning all

I'm back with my fresh start head on after a bit of a grumpy blow out at the weekend.
I weighed in before my FD on Friday morning and again on Saturday morning and in that time I managed to GAIN 1.2lb. Now.... I KNOW this must be an anomoly but it seems my logical brain refused to function so instead I said fuckitall and ate what I wanted at the weekend - resulting in an extra 2lb this morning.... So. I'm almost back where I started again a few weeks back and it is entirely my own fault.

FD today and meas planned for the week including lunches. Need to at least undo this weekends mess this week!

I'll catch up properly later, just wanted to put this out there before I gave up and abandoned hope. I know this works and I just need to keep plodding on and remind myself I'm in for a marathon not a sprint!

Happy Monday, all. Went out for a C25K this morning and the sunshine is glorious - definitely helps with the exercise motivation.

Have had a good weekend, in spite of children going on a mad baking spree. Calorie counting and exercise tracking definitely ensured I didn't go completely overboard in my consumption, so while I wouldn't say it was a great weight loss weekend I don't think it was a weight gain weekend, either.

FD tomorrow. Good luck to everyone fasting today!

MrD That weekend blip will be mostly undigested food d water due to excess carbs
A good couple of dumps and FDs should get rid of most of it

Weight fluctuates naturally from day to day due to digestion, water release / retention, hormonal swings etc

If one day's scales blip sends you off track, maybe it would be better to weigh every 4 weeks and go by clothes fit in the interim ?

Upside If you find FDs very tough, then I recommend a system of 3 miniFDs instead of 2 FDs
So you would have 800-1000 calories on e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri
Same food rules for miniFDs as on FDs, so no alcohol or junky treats those days
*
beautiful* 1200 is classic for other diets, but sounds far too low for 5:2 NFDs unless you are very short & petite

Beautiful, Upside Calorie allowance for exercise:

Mosely says there is none on FDs, no matter how much you do
None on MiniFDs either

For NFDs, do this via TDEE
Best calculator to use: Mosely's TDEE Calcc*

(not the TDEE calc in mfp or elsewhere)
He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think they do.

Ignore what fitness pal or mfp etc say about how many calories you can have on NFDs:
they are usually set for a standard daily calorie reduction diet

Also, do not use gadgets to calculate exercise calories to eat back, because they often over-estimate

People often make a mistake by eating back more exercise calories than they burn,
which is why exercise sometimes does not bring the desired boost in weight loss.
TDEE is the safest route.

Thanks for the pep talk BigChoc - normally weighing regularly helps me so not sure what is going on - Think I'll try not weighing for 2 weeks - might help me keep focused if I know I can't report anything in that time lol!

Well done on a good WE, Singa and on your C25k progress

Upside Exercise:
Exercise is necessary for health but not weight loss
It can boost progress - but only if you don't eat back more than you burn ==> use TDEE

The balance of cardio vs resistance training is very individual

I recommend you do each on at least one day, for cross-training
Cardio tends to burn more calories, but resistance training / lifting can seriously improve shape and tone up flabby areas.

After that, the most important thing is to find what you enjoy doing and is sustainable longterm for you
That could be C25K, weight-lifting / bodyweight exercises, Pilates, Shred or other videos

I suggest you keep cardio sessions to maximum 1 hour,
because longer medium intensity cardio e.g. swimming especially, but also elliptic trainer, running - tends to increase appetite a lot

Better to go for high intensity sessions, especially HIIT - but no more than 3 days per week if you do 30 minutes or more HIIT, because it is more stress on your body.

Generally, HIIT is better at accessing bodyfat as fuel, whereas cardio tends more to access glycogen (carbs)

You could add Mosely's HIIT Fat Blasts for fitness

• just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park or gym, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

Research shows they are surprisingly good at improving fitness and also correcting some insulin metabolism issues.

You need at least one rest day per week
and on those days, go outside for a walk - even 15 minutes is fine.
Walking is good for relaxation and also helps the brain's "executive functions"

For those who are not very fit, a short daily walk will improve fitness
DOn't worry if you've no time / interest in doing more

MrD A strategy if you feel tempted to go off track is to mfp what you plan to eat or drink.

Sometime seeing 500 / 1000 / 1500 extra calories can make you pause long enough to go clean your teeth instead - the clean mouth feel helps reduce temptation

@inthethickofit19 "any recommendations of low calorie food to eat with medication"

On FDs, I suggest you weigh out in advance a small number of unsalted almonds or walnuts
Or a small hunk of hard cheese
Or a hard-boiled egg on its own.

Personally, I'd allow up to 100 cals and - if you are on 500 cal FDs, have them as an extra 100, rather than including them in the 500 cals
For 800 FDs, miniFDs or NFDs - include them.

@BigChocFrenzy

I'm actully fine on fd its non fd I find difficult my tdee is 1700 and I find it hard to stick to it! So I'm thinking if I up my exercise each week then my tdee will go up which means I should then be able to fast 2 days per week and eat maybe upto 2000 calories on non fast days (I would try to keep below this) but it means if I do eat 2000 cals and I have fasted I should still see a loss.

As right now I've been fasting (not in the past week) but just going between 9.11 after a fd and 9.13 after a non fd

Upside Do use Mosely's TDEE calculator for NFDs though, not gadgets or machines.

What helps feel fuller is to cut right down on empty calories and calorie bomb treats:
alcohol, sweet treats - cake, biscuits etc - deep-fried food, pizza, pies

Boost protein and also beans, peas, lentils for added fibre
Aim for at least 5 portions veg on NFDs - Mosely says no more than 2 portions fruit

For starchy carbs, portion control is important, to avoid spiking insulin,
so no more than 100g cooked weight or 2 slices bread - and switch to wholegrain / wholemeal / rye.

Above all, no snacking / grazing - eat meals, nothing between

If you would like to give age, height, weight and planned weekly exercise, I can advise on TDEE

My sample NFD:
B: black coffee, protein porridge with chia seeds & blueberries
L: grilled salmon or steak strips, big mixed salad, tbsp vinaigrette dressing
S: chicken & veg soup, added flaked almonds, cherry tomatoes & chopped peppers,1 slice rye bread
At least 2 l water during the day

I'm very interested in doing some resistance exercise. I keep hearing about all the post-menopausal muscle loss, so I know that resistance exercises will help counter that AND give me more non-fat body weight to maintain, so it's a win-win.

How are most people here doing their resistance right now? Watching videos, online PT, apps?

@BigChocFrenzy thanks for the link, I'll have a look at it.

@BigChocFrenzy

I did the tdee calculator and if I was moderatly active (sports 3-5 times per week) my calories would be just under 2000 per day.

Today I did body combat for 30mins, pole some strength for 20mins and splits training for 30mins and feel better.

I think from now on 5 days per week I will do half an hour cardio and and half an hour strength / flexibility training alternating each day.

Surely with an hours exercise each day my tdee will go up

Bigchoc your normal non fast day sounds like your eating very healthy and to me sounds like your still on a diet (I wish i could eat like this but i dont at the moment)

Upside That's my permanent WOE - I retrained my habits and I v rarely eat junk
I've been maintaining on 5:2 for several years now
I'm nearly 64, so I wanted to create good habits for healthy aging

Singa Before my gym reopened ( germany) I was doing resistance training - squats, pressups, pullups, XCo tubes, air punching, skipping, kettle, hand weights - to a Tabata album I found on Amazon
Also free short HIIT routines on YouTube from Bowflex - abs, legs, beach body etc

@BigChocFrenzy can I ask what your initial 5:2 situation was? I hope that's not too nosy, you always give such good advice and I'm just interested

Did you have a lot to lose? Did it take long? Have you found maintaining easy?

Today's my fasting day. Struggling so much as I'm on my period, and I want to eat chocolate! Kitchens closed at 490 calories! Perhaps a camomile tea before bed. How have the other monday fasters gotten on?

Nathan Like most of the v early 5:2ers, I started 5:2 for the health benefits really.
Mosely's original Horizon program was about improving his health, especially his T2; weight loss was a happy side benefit for him

After some concerns about my family's medical history, I'd been googling scientific papers on healthy aging

• I'm a STEM PhD (not medicine or biology) and I'm used to evaluating scientific research

I found several of the leading researchers were recommending intermittent fasting,
then I stumbled on MN 5:2 - being childfree, I'd never have thought of joining MN otherwise

Although I had a few lb post-meno lb to lose from my middle - which neither low carb nor calorie counting shifted for long - I was only just above healthy BMI
So 5:2 has kept me in healthy BMI since, without much effort.

What worked for me:

• cutting out sweet junk - my username expressed my original issue !
• cutting out all snacks & grazing
• Boosting veg, fish, water
• making these my permanent healthy eating habits

(I've always been a v v light drinker, so had nothing to change there)

Well done on nailing a tough FD, beautiful
totm does make it harder
I recommend you clean your teeth now, as the fresh taste reduces the temptation to nibble

Thanks for filling us in on your background @BigChocFrenzy, it's very interesting. I appreciate your thread as it's really helpful to newbies like me. Great tip, I shall go and brush my teeth now!

Off to brush my teeth too - I managed a FD today after AGES. I nearly gave up as I forgot to tell dh I had it planned and he brought me Weetobix for breakfast (292 cals). I've had a small home made chapatti with homemade potato,carrots and pea curry. I may have gone over 500cals but not much I don't think

Thanks for the excellent advice about almonds! I will definitely do that.

@OohMrDarcy I need to make that my mantra! Before I had dc2 I got down to under 9 stone. After the birth I was about 10st 5-7lbs. I've been hovering at just under the 10 stone mark forever and can't seem to get past 9 stone 10lbs. It's been a tough year but I know I can do it. It's definitely not a race though and if we fall off, we should just get back up again!

Another question. How do those of you with small TDEE fit in the food you like as well as fruit and veg? My tdee is 1550ish and I struggle. I don't know how the structure my day to fit it in nor structure the calorie intake. Piece of fruit after each meal? I tend to only have two meals as it's a struggle to fit 3 in and stay within tdee.

Well done, inthethick You've nailed it
You did really well

With 1550 TDEE, that's plenty to have 3 meals, say
B:400
L: 600
S: 500
with 50 over for a hot drink

"How do those of you with small TDEE fit in the food you like as well as fruit and veg?"

My sample NFD menu above is the kind of food I like and would fit that calorie plan, just adjust the portions to fit

I have plenty of protein and aim for at least 5 veg, plus usually 1 fruit, but veg is more important.

For good results in the weight loss phase, I suggest you allow 10% TDEE per NFD for alcohol and junky treats; 20% in maintenance.

So in weight loss phase, you would have 775 cals treats over the 5 NFDs, which you could choose to have as a small daily treat of 155 cals, or bigger treats on just 2 days

Thanks BigChoc for telling me about why you started, the health benefits and the weight loss together make the way of life compelling!

Also thanks for the % of treats note, makes sense and is really helpful