5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

This is the list of Mosely's advice and main tips we've learned:

5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily (max 3 units) & weekly (max 14)
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plenty of sleep

Kitchen closed on around 480 today.

How have other Friday fasters fared?

Me done on 590 for my b2b. Well done mrd on yours.

Well done mrd and moon

Fd done here on 515 (ish) I had booked today and mon tues next week to decorate the lounge and have been prepping the room and got first coat on ceiling , typical of me that this coincides with such a hot few days :-( I really wanted an ice cold beer!

Anyway, I made it.

Well done both - sounds like aced fasting days all around

Fasting day today, finished on 550 calories! Did a hiit workout and walked the dog for 40 minutes this evening too. Looking forward to eating 1500 calories tomorrow!

Well done Friday Fasters!

Reasonable NFD for me here - I might do a Friday fast next week to ensure a higher likelihood of a happy Monday weigh in.

Hi I’m just starting 5:2 so thought I’d say hello 😊 I’ve struggled with my weight on and off over the years but it’s really got out of control during lockdown and I need to do something about it. I like the idea of IF as I find ‘diets’ too time consuming and restrictive plus I really want a lifestyle change, not something I do for a while then go back to my old habits.

Couple of questions - why no alcohol on fast days if it’s included in the calorie allowance? And secondly, on non fast days, does it work like other diets where you might go over on the calorie allowance a bit one day but be under another so it balances out over the course of a week?

Also, I know it’s hard to say but how quickly can I expect to lose a decent amount? I really need to see a change to make me stick with it.

Thanks 😊

@AGoodYearfortheRoses Welcome! I pick 2 non consecutive days to fast like monday and Friday to fast at 500 calories. The other days I stick to 1500 calories. I downloaded an app called my fitness pal. It calculated my daily calorie allowance to lose weight according to my weight and height. I log everything I eat into it and it gives a running subtotal of calories. It's easy to keep track. I only started this plan recently so bit of a newbie. I'm sure BigChocFrenzy and others will give you more advice about the wine.

Really happy with this week, I've lost 1.5kg so the kilo I put on last week and a bit more.

I think I might stick to recording everyday on MFP as it seems to help me not overeat. It has highlighted how much I like carbs too, going to try and do more protein based lunches and breakfasts.

Well done moon that's great

Welcome roses and good luck

I'm so pissed off today, either my scales are completely shot (I've put a new battery in) or I have put on 2lbs :-( meaning I have lost just 3lbs in the 4 weeks since I started. I have done nothing different in the last 2 weeks though (if anything I've eaten less carbs)? So week 1 lost 3lb, week 2 lost 2lb, week 3 my scales said 5lb on then 2lb on then 3lb on (so thought it was down to that playing up) week 4 2lb on, so wtaf is going on? Really not motivated at all :-( actually cried a bit too out of frustration 😥

Well done on your FDs, MrD, Moonlight, homeschool, Beaut

Congratulations on your SV, Moonlight
Protein helps keep you full and most people also need to keep carb amounts moderate, to lose well

Welcome, GoodYear 🙂

Important on FDs: no alcohol or junky treats
All the fasting experts agree on this - FDs on crap is not fasting, because fasting is not just about calories

Make FDs 2 of your weekly alcohol-free days, when you let your liver recover.

On FDs, the low amount of calories forces the body into fat-burning for energy
However, the liver prioritises processing the toxic byproducts of alcohol, so fat-burning stops for hours until this is done
The body uses the alcohol for fuel instead and may even use lean body mass if it can't burn fat

Alcohol and sugar not only hinder fat-burning, but they hinder it specifically around your middle, which is where you most want to lose fat

Also, FDs need reasonably healthy food to supply sufficient nutrients to support essential processes over the weeks, including your immune system
With only 500 or even 800 calories, there's not enough to spare for empty calories

Note: Mosely states there is no calorie allowance for FD exercise, because again, it's not just about calorie deficit

Fasting reduces inflammation, which is why it can sometimes help certain chronic conditions
However, alcohol can prevent this reduction and indeed increase it, if you drink to excess some days

Fasting also boosts the "autophagy" process, in which old, damaged cells are removed to make way for new, healthier cells
Alcohol stops this too

GoodYear "NFDs"

The idea on NFDs is not to eat back the FD calorie deficit
So it's fine to go above TDEE a couple of days provided you go below on other days to balnce out

Most people don't need to count calories if they follow the 5:2 healthy guidelines for NFDs,
but some people who have struggled with weight for years may need temporarily to mfp, to help retrain their "normal eating"

"I really want a lifestyle change"

A key change for many folk is to keep alcohol and junk intake moderate
Others may need to address portion control of healthy food

For many people, longterm weight management requires retraining longterm habits, to stop the yo-yo

"how quickly can I expect to lose a decent amount?"

It's usual to lose quite a bit within the first 2 weeks, then settle down to their longterm weekly loss rate.
This is 1lb on average, but can be much more for individuals, or can be less
How quickly you lose depends on many factors:

• If you've a few stone to lose, you'll tend to lose much more quickly than someone already within healthy BMI

• Some medications or conditions like PCOS, thyroid or being in peri / post-meno slow down loss significantly

• A junky / boozy WOL will slow fat-burning.
  As with all weight loss systems, you'll get better results if you keep to NHS alcohol limits on NFDs
  and are moderate with junky treats like pizza, cake, biscuits, crisps etc

homeschool Have you checked with tape measure or an item of clothing, whether you are losing inches ?

There are 2 main possibilities re scales:

1. You are consuming more calories than you think I recommend one week on mfp, weighing & measuring everything you eat & drink

• and trying to eat "normally" so you don't skew results !

2. Your scales are defective, or you are not weighing consistently

How to Weigh

For consistency, I recommend recording weight in the morning after FD2, every 1, 2, 4 or 6 weeks (your choice)

. First thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. Weigh yourself naked
. Use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. Switch on the scales and count slowly to 3, so they have time to calibrate, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

Thanks for advice bigchoc I genuinely do not think I am overeating as I'm practically sticking to the same stuff as I did in first 2 weeks when I lost 5lbs but from Monday I'll mfp it just in case. I have 1850 tdee (I'm 46, currently 185lbs and 5ft 7)

Ironically I felt smaller this morning and was so looking forward to the SV 🤯 that'll teach me!

Oh and just to vent it all.... I've even bloody done C25K 3 times this week - humpfff!

Just think how fit you are getting doing C25k though home

I would check with the tape measure and maybe only weight every other week for a while, it's hard though and fully sympathise.

homeschool As recommended, check your measurements or the currnt fit of an item of clothing you wore before you started 5:2
If you find you have lost inches, then look at scales or weighing technique

I'm having a miniFD
Anyone else ?
Another gorgeous sunny day, lots of boats out and the Rhine is beckoning me to come out and walk

Good luck @BigChocFrenzy! Mine's tomorrow. I couldn't fast on a Sunday, it's the only day we have cake (a chocolate one at that!)

@BigChocFrenzy thanks that’s really useful, I’m starting to see there’s more to this than just counting calories 🤔

Oh, you are evil to remind me of choc cake when I'm fasting beaut 😂
but I've just shut the kitchen now

roses Calories are dominant in weight loss,
but different types of calories affect your body in different ways wrt weight - and wrt heath

Also, an individual's tolerance / sensitivity to junk and alcohol changes as they get older and e.g. insulin resistance or peri / meno starts.
Or they start chronic conditions of the thyroid or liver etc
Or need to take certain meds like ADs or steroids

For longterm weight management and good health, we need to form reasonably healthy habits for life,
which will also help if / when our lives change.

Sorry @BigChocFrenzy! Well done for fasting today. I've gone over my 1200 calories today, so have taken the dog out walking for 40 minutes and am currently on an excerise bike (aiming for 1.5 hrs on it). According to my fitness app, this should burn off the excess! 😅 Well done to all those who fasted today.

Well done on the exercise, beautiful
but out of interest, why do you have a target of 1200 today ? - it is very low for a TDEE

Hi. Can I ask for any recommendations of low calorie food to eat with medication requiring to be taken with food on my FD? I prefer to eat around 4pm but need something very small to take with Meds around 8am