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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2020 09:57

Congratulations on yourSV, MrD
and sheeeee's back !

What a lovely birthday, homeschool
Sounds like 5:2 may have started to reduce your appetite - it happens to some folk

Moonlight Have you tried 3 weekly minis for weight loss ?
because 2 weekly minis is what some others and I do on maintenance

Devil I'm doing b2b miniFDs - I tend to fast at the WE, because back several years ago in weight loss phase, I found my WEs were undoing the good work during the week

On lockdown, not really much to do on WEs, so it is a good opportunity to retrain WEs with a single Sat or Sun FD,
imo, for those who wouldn't normally consider them

OP posts:
InterstellarDrifter · 16/05/2020 10:20

It sounds like you had a lovely birthday @homeschoolhell
Well done @OohMrDarcy that’s a fab loss.

I’m doing a mini fast day today as I find I undo all the good work too. I’m going to have 2 meals and try to stay around 800 calories.
My plan is lentil and tomato soup, ryvita and apple for lunch
Meatball and chickpea spinach salad for dinner.
I think that works out to around 400 cals each.

DietChic · 16/05/2020 10:36

Morning all - good SV MrD!

I’m posting here so my resolve doesn’t collapse under the weight of a full English..

I am going to do a FD today - I ate too much yesterday and weighed in at 13st 5 - I have been 13st 4 for about 5 years weeks now with the odd bounce to 13st 3 after the 2nd FD and I am NOT doing this again for five weeks but a pound up!

So - ran 5k this morning which will likely lead me to retain some water but I don’t care. It will also make me ravenous and I don’t care about that either!

We have a roast chicken for lunch and some veg and I’ll keep that at 500 cals and early bed.

Not going back up after that long a plateau!

BCF - a timely post on weekend fasting!

Waspie · 16/05/2020 14:17

Glad you had a good birthday homeschool!

Excellent SV MrD Flowers

Good luck with the rest of your 90 days emcla. I've re-discovered celery recently. It has that satisfying crunch that an apple has which makes me happy Smile.

LOL gin - yes, photos of cake is probably akin to torture on a weight loss forum Grin

NFD for me. Blueberry pancakes and maple syrup for breakfast and steak and jersey royals with asparagus and mushrooms for dinner. Skipping lunch due to pancake breakfast! Walked the dog early doors and then DP, #DS & I played basketball for about 45 minutes which gets the heart rate up!

Good luck on your minis/FDs BCF, Devil, Interstellar and Diet

emcla · 16/05/2020 15:07

Good luck Saturday fasters and to bigchoc on your b2b.

Hellokitty105 · 16/05/2020 15:45

Happy Birthday home!! 🍰 just catching up, been working this week which has helped keep my mind pre occupied.

I’ve been back on it this week. MFP has really helped me monitor and keep on track. I’ve completed two fast days and I might do a mini tomorrow before weekly weigh in on Monday 😬🤭

emcla · 16/05/2020 21:13

Sounds delicious waspie.

devildeepbluesea · 17/05/2020 08:12

Morning everyone. Checking in, just walked dog now for Bodypump. Am trying to persuade DD to come with me for a walk/run later.
@Waspie ooohh steak, I could just do a lovely bit of rump. Hope it was good.
NFD today, planning maybe eggs for brekkie, no idea for lunch and fishcakes for tea. Oh, and a little scone with clotted cream and jam for a special pudding treat.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2020 10:23

Morning, all
Sounds a good NFD plan, devil

The sunny Rhine is beckoning, so I'm off for a long walk now too
Anyone else fasting today ? - I'm doing a miniFD

OP posts:
emcla · 17/05/2020 10:54

Good morning. Good luck on your mini fd bigchoc.

Enjoy the fresh air and exercise everyone x

Waspie · 17/05/2020 12:12

I hope you enjoyed your Rhine walk, and your mini, BCF.

I don't often eat red meat but occasionally I get a real craving for steak. Apparently there is a drive on for Brits to eat beef and drink milk because there's an over supply due to restaurants and cafeterias not being open. Anyway, happy to help with a nice piece of sirloin occasionally Smile

Your NFD menu sounds lovely Devil. I love fishcakes. homeschool recommended Thai fishcakes with salad as a good FD meal so we're having these tomorrow.

DS is still in the midst of his basketball obsession so we're off to play on the court in the local park. Enjoy your Sundays everyone and good luck anyone doing a FD Brew

SausageCrush · 17/05/2020 14:48

Hi all.
I'm after some help please and know there are lots of wise words and friendly advise on here!
I've been doing 5/2 since last summer and lost two and a half stone, but have found lockdown hard and not being able to gym/swim difficult. In short I've gained 10lbs and am mortified.
My question is about doing a zero calorie/water fast instead of calorie counting. Is this okay to do? I'm a reasonably fit & healthy fifty something and find calorie counting a faff and think I'd be better just drinking water, green tea and black coffee.
Obviously 5/2 has worked for me in the past, but my current thinking is that if I just keep busy and don't think about food at all on my fast days, I might find it easier.
Any thoughts/experiences/scientific reasoning would be most welcome.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2020 20:48

Hi sausage Weight loss for most people, except for intense exerxisers, is at least 90% diet to 10% exercise
Exercise is important for health, but not for weight loss, so don't worry about gym atm.

I recommend some HIIT videos, e.g. the free BowFlex ones that only take a few minutes,
then add a daily walk or cycle outside

I recommend against zero calorie FDs,
because as a WOE you risk losing lean mass, which is not good.
Also, at this time your immune system system needs plenty of nutrients every day and it is not the time for extreme fasts.

==> Just do 500 cal FDs, the standard 5:2
The basic FD rules are no alcohol, no junk
Try 1-2 meals on an FD, whichever suits best, nothing between
Base FD meals on protein and plenty of different veg

Varady did a study comparing ½ TDEE, ¼ TDEE and 0 cals
and found that the optimum for weight loss and muscle retention is ¼ TDEE (which she & Mosely round off to 500 for women, 600 for men)

If you are not losing on 5:2, the problem is likely to be the NFDs - usually too many treats.
You could mfp for a week, to check for calorie bombs, portion size ezc

Or without mfp, try 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Lots of water & veg each day
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
  • Plenty of sleep
OP posts:
spatchcock · 18/05/2020 01:10

Morning everyone - it's Monday and I'm doing my first FD of the week. I've decided to do three - MWF. Like @SausageCrush I have packed on lockdown weight and I'm hoping to kickstart a loss by doing 4:3 for a couple of weeks.

I had a bit of a decadent weekend, definitely over ate Blush and am glad to be fasting today.

Good luck on your Monday fasts everyone.

devildeepbluesea · 18/05/2020 06:35

Morning everyone, I'm fasting today too. I've woken up quite hungry which is concerning but I've planned nice food for later so fingers crossed!
I'm having my usual hard boiled egg, then homemade lentil soup, followed by a Fage 0% Greek yogurt with pomegranate and strawberry. Works out to 473 cals.
spatchcock good luck with your fast.

moonlight1705 · 18/05/2020 06:53

Morning, I'm on a non FD today but going to plan meals and do the weekly shop so really thinking carefully about both FDs and non FDs this week.

I also had a bit of an indulgent weekend, my DSis baked me a birthday cake and dropped it on the doorstep. I did try and limit with no snacks but had big lovely dinners and cake for dessert.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/05/2020 08:23

Good luck, Spatchcock, Devil and any other Monday fasters

Happy birthday weekend, moonlight 💐
You did well not to snack; that's a good habit NSV

OP posts:
emcla · 18/05/2020 08:56

Good luck spatch and devil. I’m fasting today also.

Winecheesesleep · 18/05/2020 09:15

I weighed in today (week 2) and lost 4 pounds! Am thrilled about that, especially as I didn't lose anything in my first week. Its been going really well, I've focused on @BigChocFrenzy's advice around not over eating on NFDs and seeing them as maintenance days rather than feast days which has really helped. I've eaten some lovely food but think I've come in about right in terms of calories without counting them all.

Hope everyone else is feeling good.

OohMrDarcy · 18/05/2020 09:39

Morning all

Another Monday faster here - kids are back tomorrow so getting in a FD whilst it is easy.
Planning a lean pork stir fry as my main meal today. Just calculating calories and then will work out if I can have another mini meal or not. Over indulged a little at the weekend, but also got out of the house and did some lovely walking - got to nearly 18000 steps yesterday Smile

Wine congrats on the SV!

Moonlight - happy birthday! Sounds like you managed a lovely one!

InterstellarDrifter · 18/05/2020 09:48

@Winecheesesleep well done on the loss.

Fasting day for me. I ate too much yesterday so undoing it today.

Good luck everyone fasting today.

Waspie · 18/05/2020 09:51

Morning all!

The advice about 500 calories rather than 250 or 0 calories is interesting BCF

I'm glad you had a good birthday moonlight FlowersCake

Congratulations on your SV Wine!

I'm fasting today too, so will join you all please. Good luck emcla, Devil, spatchcock, MrD and other Monday fasters.

Moanranger · 18/05/2020 10:11

Hi, all & well done wine! I am just starting my 4th week & have now lost 2k in total, so an SV.
The point about NFD is key. I moved to a structured keto regime last week & that helped immensely. It’s calorie & macro counted so I don’t have to faff with counting myself, then reduce it for FDs.
An interesting NSV, my knees, which usually give me gyp when I walk, are way better. I think this may be due to vastly reducing my carb intake. I am not sure if there is any research on this. I do not have arthritis, just creaky knees from years of running & tennis, & a couple of old injuries. Thoughts, anyone?

devildeepbluesea · 18/05/2020 10:57

Congratulations @Winecheesesleep, that's fab.

After a shaky start to my FD I'm coping ok. Planning a long walk after work to keep me occupied and away from the fridge.

spatchcock · 18/05/2020 11:02

It’s bedtime here. Finished my FD at about 700cals. Not ideal I know. But will redouble efforts on Weds.

Good luck all you Monday fasters!!