5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Battenburg I always recommend no weighing on totm

• because a blip is meaningless and can be discouraging

Most women retain a few lb water weight at totm due to the hormonal changes

Instead, avoid the totm munchies
and keep drinking water - or your body may retain even more

Then the 1st FD after the end of totm should release the retained water
So the next NFD, you should be back where you were before totm - plus maybe some extra fat loss if the munchies didn't take over

To lose as quickly as your individual body allows - and often to avoid the need to count NFD calories:

5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plenty of sleep

Thanks for your advice @BigChocFrenzy, that completely makes sense. I think I'm normally not that bad with my normal eating but will give it another week and then log in MFP, I'm already using that for FDs.

I am doing my 3rd FD today and finding it OK. I even went for a bike ride and had plenty of energy.

I am Monday fasting. Feeling pretty good, I added two rice cakes to my broccoli soup, which may have given me enough carbs to avoid that dragged out feeling I sometimes get on FDs.
My evening meal is eggs shashouska, which I will have at 8.
I think I overdid my NFDs this weekend. Tomorrow I plan a light breakfast, salad-protein lunch and a balanced dinner with small carb serving.
I used to be able to no-carb quite easily, but now I do better on low carb.
Good luck all Monday fasters!

All food eaten. Absurdly early bedtime will be happening! Total calories 559.

Gasp. But considering the raging hunger post run, it’s good to nail down officially that it CAN be done.

That sounds like you are adapting well, wine
if you have plenty of energy for exercise on FDs

Good luck, Moan

If by no-carb you mean no starches,
then adding beans (e.g. kidney beans, not Heinz baked !) / peas / lentils provides v healthy carbs, with plenty of fibre to keep you fuller for longer

A tbsp of flaxmeal (the meal not the seeds) is another healthy addition

Also useful are chia seeds - but drink lots of water and don't exceed 1 tbsp per day, in case you get bunged up !

Well done chic, you nailed it
An extra long sleep is sometimes just what your body and your immune system need

Yes, BCF, I mean a small amount of carbs/starch, but I eat beans, pulses, peas, only 1-2 tablespoons, not a big, starchy serving.

Evening! Fast day complete. Finished on just over 550. Felt pretty good. Have been struggling with impatience on a Monday fast, home educating the 8 year old on little food has been getting the best of me, but she was happy and engaged in her work which made a huge difference and the day passed smoothly!

Hope everyone else has had a successful day!! Good luck to any Tuesday fasters

Hi everyone, I’m reading all your posts to encourage me. I did 5:2 about five years ago and it worked so well but I had a baby and couldn’t deal with the hunger and the fatigue.

I have packed on the kilos during lockdown so revisiting the diet now. I’m much better placed to do it now. The first day was easy as I was at work. Today has draaaagged (I’m down under hence time difference).

I’m encouraged by your posts and will be back for inspiration.

Morning all

Today is Tuesday so that means my first FD since all this started! Dropping the kids off to their dad in 1.5 hrs.
Going for chicken and veggies tonight I think and maybe a 1 egg omelette for lunch.

Well done on your FD, gin

Welcome, Spatchcock 🙂
Sounds like and well done on your 1st FD

Today, maybe find some chores to do that keep mind & body occupied ? - gardening, sorting out cupboards

Good luck on your 1st FD back, MrD
That sounds an easy, safe menu
Keep drinking water !

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy!

I was actually working from home today while looking after kids (was in the office last FD which is busier). So can’t get out, and it’s hard to concentrate when the fridge is just... there. But I did it!! It’s almost bedtime now and I think I am at about 450 cals.

Does it get easier?? The preoccupation with food? I was counting down the hours.

I also have a tendency to binge although I have improved in this area as I’ve aged. Keeping a careful eye on that but if you have any suggestions or insights for me under 5:2. I would love to hear them.

well done to all the fasters yesterday!
welcome spatchcock and well done on your FD - I think it just depends, some FDs are a breeze, others are difficult, keep repeating the 5:2 mantra helps me 'I can have it tomorrow'

FD today and nothing but 2 cups of tea yet, going to have some scrambled eggs and chicken for lunch and dinner as I did this last week on one of my FDs as I couldn't be arsed and I was really full for most of the day! I am so cold today though, going to have to put the heating on later at this rate....

Good luck today mrd and all the other fasters

Hi everyone, I did a fd yesterday and was busy all day so it was much easier than my last fd

I know I over ate alot last week as it was the time of the month and I really don't think I've lost anything.

I might attempt 3 fast days this week and if I end up with one fd and 2 mini fd I will be happy. Its definitely the non fd which are hard Coz sometimes I just want to eat the world.

And i know the rule about no snacking makes perfect sense, but it's very difficult as I love snacks. I'm pretty sure if I didn't snack I would be perfect weight.

How can I stop snacking it doesn't seem as straight forward as just don't do it. Like does that then mean never have chocolate, cakes or crisps again? Or nuts?

@spatchcock - I agree with home school hell - some days just are easier. Are you in the office weekly? If so maybe use those as fd as sitting at home knowing the biscuits are there calling you in torture sometimes

upside the no snacking has been a revelation for me and honestly, it does get easier. Of course you can have that stuff still, just as part of your meal on some NFDs. I saw a chart that bigchoc posted a while ago about how snacking keeps your insulin peaked and it was a lightbulb moment for me. I'll see if I can find it but others might know which one I mean

@spatchcock I agree! I find it really hard to do FD's and homeschool! I try and keep her schooling activities fairly light on my FD's (helps her too as I fast on Monday's so it's an ease into the week) and I don't do things which I know will be challenging for her, I save those for NFD's where I can hit the baked goods if required!!

Yy to homeschool hell. It’s difficult enough to stay on an even keel without getting hangry!

Mmm baked goods. I always seem to read recipes on FDs too.

Fd today for me. Off from some soup for my lunch. Anyone else fasting ??

Good luck today emcla, homeschool

Well done on your FD, Spatchcock, upside

Spatchcock re stopping binges, I recommend keeping to the
_
5:2 healthy habits on NFDs_, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plenty of sleep

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, cake etc - and even fruit, nuts, yoghurt etc should only be as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3-4 hrs away from a meal

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

• almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

Hi All,

I fasted last Thursday and again yesterday although I "fell off the wagon" a bit at the weekend . Friday DP, DS & I had a BBQ and I opened the bubbles for the 3pm toast and then sort of continued toasting things for several hours. I wasn't drunk but I did put a significant dent in the contents of the bottle! Anyway, back on message now.

Good SVs moonlight, homeschool emcla and Giant

Belated birthday wishes to wine and early birthday greetings to "homeschool*

I'm a Monday & Thursday faster too Battenburg

Hope your FDs go well today ladies, particularly MrD- back in the saddle. Good luck!

I'm doing a mini today and it looks like it will be 960 by the end of the day. Really really hungry today for some reason so am just getting loads of water to try and stop the pangs.

I recalculated my BMI and it turns out I have 7.5lb or 3.8kg before I'm under 40 so that will be my next target. I seem to lose and then plateau for a month then lose again etc, frustrating so will keep on these 3 minis well this week and watch my NFDs.