5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Took me so long to post I missed yoikes and HedgeHog joining us. Welcome

I'd suggest you have a read of the OP first - there are links to the TDEE calculator and other really useful info.

Definitely easier to fast on days which are busy yoikes

Aim for 500 on a fast day HedgeHog and TDEE on the other days but no snacks on non-fast days. Good luck both of you!

Hi all - @waspie we are fasting buddies!

Does anyone else find it SO MUCH more difficult to fast when WFH?! I am usually out of the house M-F working in all different places so I just pick my busiest two days for my fast days. But obviously now am going nowhere... some days I have video conferences etc but mainly just written work and today is one of those days. I am finding it TOUGH to keep myself distracted...!

@yoikes

See big chic frenzy last post for the link to TDEE calculator

Welcome both!

BCF - thanks I never thought of that.

Welcome, Yoikes 🙂
Yes, usually easiest to fast on a busy day ... but not when you're running a marathon !

All you need to know is in the OP under the "How to Start" heading

Best calculator to use: Mosely's TDEE Calc

(not the TDEE calc in mfp or elsewhere)
He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think they do.

never eat back FD calories

What helps sensible NFDs, if you want to try first without counting calories:

5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Welcome, hedgehog 🙂
FDs are 500 cals but you can ease in with 800 cals if you prefer to start slowly
FDs are 1,000 cals if you are EBF

2,000 is a decent NFD target, so see how you go
Just remember not to eat back exercise calories on FDs or NFDs - the latter includes exercise via TDEE

Good luck, Waspie, Harriet and any other Thursday fasters

Drifter You are doing well not to gain during totm, because most women retain a few lb water then.

Keep drinking water, so your body doesn't retain more, avoid the totm munchies ....
and then the 1st FD after totm ends usually gets rid of all the excess water
People sometimes see a bit of a whoosh on the scales the following NFD

homeschool Friday is good for an FD, to shorten the WE
I often choose a Saturday or Sunday to shorten WE damage
sometimes even a b2b (2 successive FDs - on 800, as I am maintaining)

I recommend no weighing during totm

With retained water weight / bloat, any scales blip is meaningless and can be demotivating if you worry about numbers

I hope your fast day is going well so far.

Actually I'm finding it easier to fast now I'm WFH all the time. Mainly because there is no "beige" food on offer every time I go to the kitchen. Plus DP is fasting too so it's harder to cheat!

I had chicken cup a soup for lunch and am planning on mushroom omelette with some low fat coleslaw for dinner. A hot bubble bath with a good book this evening and an early night

Hi all

I just wondered if I could have some advice. My TDEE is 2057 calories. I have been recording my calories on MFP for the last week and my total calories for each day are as follows:

• 5x NFDs: 1398 calories; 1830 calories; 1236 calories; 1672 calories.
• 2x FDs a week: 482 calories; 556 calories

Is there a problem with my NFDs being much lower than my TDEE most days? Today for example so far I have eaten around 700 calories as I have not had dinner yet. I just played around my MFP and I can eat an entire pizza and still need to eat 600 more calories. Should I be adding to my dinner another 600ish calories to bump it up or finish the day on 1400 calories?

Thank you

Hi, all & welcome to the newbies!
Today is my second FD this week. For some reason I found today harder. Some FDs I sail through & some feel really uphill. Almost done, though, with a bit of soup left for later & just under 500 cals. I have been walking nearly every day, yesterday 5 mi & today my more usual 4. I am feeling fitter for sure, but I won’t know the effect on my weight til the end of next week. I will have my walk tomorrow first thing, then black coffee until I feel hunger, then breakfast, no sooner than 10:30 & possibly later. Good luck all Friday fasters.

down I wouldn’t eat more than you are satisfied with for the sake of notional targets. If you are comfortably full, I would leave it, but see what BCF says.

In bed on 490 calories... but the bloody kids have finished the bread tonight so no toast for brekkie! 🙈😖

Well done today’s fasters!

I think practice makes perfect in early days of 5:2. I have definitely had to find out how to make it work - I used to try to split the 500 cals into 3 meals and really struggled. I now try to make it as late as possible, protein heavy where possible and most calories in the evening.

And switching from coffee with milk to black coffee was also helpful (just on FDs - I don’t prefer the taste of black coffee but I don’t mind it). It’s decaf as well so i think it’s the milk in it which makes me hungrier.

Down I'm probably too late, sorry !

However, for future reference:
if you are under TDEE, then do eat more if you are hungry, but don't eat if you aren't

Don't worry if your appetite has dropped atm - you may not feel very hungry if you are burning bodyfat for fuel
or if you have replaced trigger food / junk by healthy choices

Don't try to speed up loss by deliberately under-eating and feeling hungry on NFDs, because that is not usually sustainable
Also, avoid going hungry most of the day and then eating a huge NFD meal late in the evening - i.e. not a good idea to suddenly add the extra 600 cals at that time !

Well done, Waspie, Harriet , Moan and any other fasters today

Chic Black coffee is a useful breakfast on FDs, so you can have 1 or 2 more substantial meals

Basing your meal(s) later on plenty of protein & veg will keep you feeling fuller for longer
I can recommend protein with a salad & balsamic vinegar dressing - gives a big plate for not many calories
My fav is grilled / fried salmon strips

First full day back has been challenging. I reacquainted myself with MFP today and it informed me I am 'allowed' 1254 calories a day. I also realise I have 2.5kg to lose and not 2kg. I seriously need to try to get my exercise back up.

Moanranger when I was putting in FDs I often used to find the second one harder too and I actually found it easier doing B2Bs. Those days are probably gone now - my OH is retired and I have very little alone time. He's always done most of the cooking and i'm really beginning to resent having to account to him for how and when I want to eat.

Well done fasters! Thank you very much for all of the information and advice BigChocFrenzy (your username describes my appetite most of the time 😂!).

It’s really nice to read/discuss here as I’m trying not to make a big deal of it at home and especially with DD / SDD not seeing ‘mum/Battenburg on a diet’.

I’ll see how weight ends up on Monday but so far the scales are more promising than I’d imagined and the apple cider vinegar drink seems to really help with food cravings. I don’t want to count my chickens though. Been doing lots of home baking, but if I was in the office I’d be buying and eating more processed junk, crisps, biscuits etc so maybe it’s evening out. Next week I’ll try and incorporate some sort of daily exercise video and see how that goes - super baby steps so that this is a WOL that can continue. I have never been as heavy as this in my life and I want to get fit and healthy again so that my daughter has a decent role model for staying healthy and fit.

PS I’ve allocated set days (Monday/Thursday) for my FD and pretty much eat the same thing for now which is either home made soup or crudités with mint yoghurt dip for lunch, then a veggie ovenable (cauliflower grill/sausages) with big green salad for dinner. For now taking the thought process out of it helps me hugely .

That's tough, Fair Your OH sounds a pain

That 1254 number must be far too low for NFDs, unless you are v v short

mfp assumes a standard daily calorie-reduced diet, but on NFDs you need to maintain
i.e. use Mosely's TDEE Calcc*

Well done, Battenburg
A good start, especially sorting out an FD system & menu that work for you

Definitely think longterm;
use the NFDs to gradually develop healthier habits that you will keep for lifelong weight management

Yes @Battenburg1978 I find having set fast meals REALLY helps. We've been having fish or fishcakes with green veg for dinner recently and it takes all alternative temptation out of it!

Not done any fast days this week, and I’ve not eaten the best but it is my birthday on Sunday so I’ve had a week off. As of Monday I will be back on it properly, you can’t not have cake on your birthday 😬 I’m going back to using MFP to log and help me keep on track for a while too.

Afternoon everyone and welcome newbies 😁

Fd #2 today and I've just had 1 scrambled egg and some sliced chicken before we head to the woods for a walk. I am so grumpy today though, humpfff! Trying my hardest not to be for dh and ds....

Anyone else fasting today?

BigChoc alas I am one of nature's vertically challenged. Moseley's TDEE has me at 1287 on the lowest activity setting. Light activity allows me 1474 but i'm not there yet.

Battenburg1978 one of the benefits of 5:2 is that it relies on change of eating habits, not on a change of what you can eat (with the caveat that calories in need to be on average lower than calories out if you want to lose weight or about the same if you want to maintain). Cutting out snacks was probably the most significant first thing I learned here and that's a change that can be made without the family even knowing.

Homeschoolhell hope you enjoyed the walk and spirits are lifted slightly.

fair I did thanks, it was beautiful in the woods

Battled through and fd finished on 495cals, early night for me I think 😁 hope everyone else is doing well

@Moanranger @BigChocFrenzy Thank you both! I ended up not eating the extra calories as it would have been made up of snacky food that would have been similar to the evening/comfort eating habit I am trying to get rid of.

I ended up having an unplanned FD today. I was supposed to have my fast day tomorrow but I got through the day without really eating anything as I just have no appetite. It was not a good/healthy FD though as I drank my calories with a delicious iced caramel latte and a mouthful of buttercream icing (I just had to taste test ). Ended the day on 403 calories. Looking forward to having a NFD tomorrow instead now and eating lots of fruit and veg to make up for today.

Hi everyone. I’ve had a busy week but have managed to eat healthier and complete my fast days. I have decided to cut all junk such as biscuits, cakes , ice cream etc out for 90 days and have managed it for 12 days so far. I have been eating more fruit though. Some days up to 5 pieces. Have to cut back on that now and aim for 2 pieces per day. Lovely to catch up on everyone. Have a lovely weekend.