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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fairineouf · 05/05/2020 23:47

Hi all - Granny here, back again but with a name change.

Maintenance has been going okay but have turned into a sofa sloth and weight is up by 2kg so here for accountability to get it gone - best to tackle it now, no point in letting it creep up any further.

Exercise has stalled too and I was doing so well before I was struck down with one of those nasty viruses going around that probably wasn't Covid. Seven weeks later and am managing an hours walk every other day but I need to start adding toning exercises although my memory is awful since being ill and I have had to resort to writing a daily list of what I need to do. Sometimes I even remember to read it too.

So my plan:- cut out the late night/very early morning snacking that has crept back in. Substitute alternate cups of coffee for a glass of water. Starting tomorrow 20 minutes toning each day. My 5:2 will be crisps and alcohol - 5 days without, 2 days with. Cutting down on the crisps will definitely be the harder of the two Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 00:15

^Well done, MrD and good luck next week.

Welcome back, Fair

Sorry to hear you have been ill - some of these bugs can mean a really long recovery time,
so be patient with yourself

I caught proper flu back when I was a fit 45-year-old;
I was in bed 2 weeks, went back to work for a few days and relapsed for 2 weeks more in bed;
it then took me 4 months to regain my previous gym fitness

Some light resistance exercises would help, but nothing too strenuous
20 minutes is plenty, to cover upper body, lower body, abs

Cutting out snacks between meals is important to get back on track with healthy habits
So remember to have your crisps and alcohol only as part of a meal

OP posts:
DietChic · 06/05/2020 08:04

FD today I think - I had a good tomato salad yesterday that could feature for lunch - just fresh tomatoes sliced, salted, olive oil, balsamic and black pepper - 79 calories for a big plate) and soup or omelette lined up in the evening.

Same routine as before: black coffee only til eating as late as I can stand it - hopefully nothing until after 2.30pm then bed early with a book if that’s what it takes!

NB - I weighed exactly the same On Tuesday am post FD as on Monday. Infuriating!

OohMrDarcy · 06/05/2020 09:23

Morning all

Ready for another NFD here, I'm having chicken wraps (in wholemeal tortilla) for dinner with a big salad... need to have a look for lunch but I'm sure it will be fine - have planned it out with plenty of good options!

Enjoy your FD dietchic - that big plate of tomatoes for lunch would give me heartburn!

Waspie · 06/05/2020 10:34

Morning all.

Good SV upside Smile

Well done on your FDs this week everyone. You all seem really positive!

I've worked out that I've lost 8Kg in 12 weeks. Is that reasonable do you think BigChoc? I still have 7Kg to lose to get to my first target and then a further 5Kg to get to a good healthy weight for my height. Do you think I should add a mini to the two 500 cal FD's I'm doing? TIA

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:57

Congratulations on your SV, Waspie
That's a very good rate of loss for your weight range

I recommend you stick to 5:2 and don't add on any miniFDs
You need a sustainable WOL, that does not stress your system

Good luck, Chic
That sounds a delic menu, but for lunch I suggest you add protein e.g. boiled egg, or a few nuts

Some folk lose in fits & starts, not linearly
Weight can naturally vary from day to day - undigested food, retained water, hormonal swings etc - so it's best to look at the trend over 2-3 weeks

As above, I recommend against anyone trying to force quicker loss with more than 2FDs

That's good NFD planning, MrD

OP posts:
Waspie · 06/05/2020 12:18

Thanks for your advice BigChoc. It's a marathon not a sprint and a change to my WOL Smile. I definitely lose in fits and starts!

NFD for me too MrD; chicken fahitas for dinner chez Wasp.

Hope your FD goes well Diet and other Wednesday fasters Brew

InterstellarDrifter · 06/05/2020 12:46

Well done everyone on good fast days. @Waspie 8kg is a fab weight loss. Congratulations!
@DietChic that simple tomato salad sounds so delicious. Tomatoes are one of my favourite foods.

I had a really off day yesterday. My jeans felt snug, my stomach was bloated and I felt really demotivated. I ended up snacking during the day and watching tv and eating dairy free ice cream in the evening.
Today, I got my period. Isn’t it mad how we are so affected by our hormones? I felt like I was doing so well. I had so much clarity then bam!
Now I feel like I’m in a bit of fog and I feel annoyed that my jeans aren’t getting looser quick enough.
It’s taking a lot of effort to not dive into a pile of toast!

downcherrytreelane · 06/05/2020 13:38

FD went well yesterday, I didn't eat until 6:30pm aside from my morning coffee with milk and then had a fried egg and avocado on toast for dinner which I know is really high in fat but it is really filling. Ended up on 560 calories.

Definitely grateful for today being a NFD as I am feeling very hungry. Last night I watched some Youtube videos of Dr. Fung on fasting which I found very interesting relating to the effects of insulin on weight. I feel like the black and white nature of this 5:2 approach is really useful as I don't crave chocolate on my FD because I know no food is "allowed" and something about having that kind of boundary cuts off any cravings as I just forget about food once I know I have reached my calorie allowance.

I have been counting calories on my NFD because I do find it hard to go from being super strict and meticulous with calorie counting on FD to the more easy-going approach on NFD. However, I have found it useful as it encourages me to be more balanced with my eating which is something that does not come intuitively with me. For example, on a Sunday when I am having a roast I may skip breakfast and have a light lunch to "save" my calories for the roast dinner.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 14:26

Well done on your FD, Down
Some need to count on NFDs, at least until habits have been changed; others never need to
Whatever system works best for you to have sensible NFDs

Drifter totm munchies are really tough and have sent many women off track
I can only recommend that whatever tactic you try - NEVER snack between meals

If you are genuinely hungry - not mildly peckish - then have a nourishing minimeal, with protein, not junk
Maybe your previous meal was too small, or too carby.
It's OK to eat when hungry on NFDs

Drink water first, in case you are thirsty - when bloated, your body will retain water even longer if you aren't fully hydrated.

If you are bored or frustrated, then train yourself not to use food as entertainment or to console yourself
That's a really key habit to break, to avoid a lifetime of yo-yo dieting.

OP posts:
InterstellarDrifter · 06/05/2020 17:24

Thanks for the helpful advice @BigChocFrenzy. It’s all good sense.

I’m such a carb fiend. I love nothing more than sandwiches or toast. Or some baguette with Brie and tomatoes. My favourite.
This is why I am overweight but it’s always what I want for comfort too.
I just have to remind myself I’ll be happier losing weight than having a few moments of taste.

Luckily, I’m at home and not having to go into work so I’ve just been lounging and trying to stay away from food.
I’ve got a shepherds pie with lots of added veg so I’m looking forward to that for dinner.
I hope everyone else is having a good day.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 20:57

You sound positive, drifter Smile

How did your FD go, Chic ?

OP posts:
DietChic · 07/05/2020 06:53

Kitchen closed yesterday on 505 - mostly because I fell asleep on the sofa which killed off hunger! I took the protein advice BCF, and pinched a couple of DH’s prawn siu mai dumplings for lunch when I saw they were 32 calories each.

Looking forward to breakfast!

OohMrDarcy · 07/05/2020 07:58

Morning all

Congrats on the SV waspie!

Drifter sorry to here about the TOTM munchies... it's a common issue for women!

Well done on a good FD cherry and dietchic

Ready for another NFD here. Cottage pie for dinner tonight (always loaded with veggies) and extra veggies on the side... probably brocolli and greens.

Not sure for lunch today, will have another nose in the fridge / cupboard.... I think I may have what I need for a stir fry so may go for that today 😋

Tomorrow we are having a bbq and camping in the garden (nearest we can get to our usual bank holiday activities!) So planning ahead to keep that reasonably balanced!

inthethickofit19 · 07/05/2020 08:36

Morning all

Finding it really hard to stay focused this time around. Not just during lockdown but also since having my second. I guess I'm more tired and it's been a v stressful year as he hasn't been well.

Anyway, I posted recently about fibromyalgia flares and how best to handle. BCF kindly suggested maintaining during flares (rather than adding extra fasts in good periods) and that was absolutely the right thing to do.

However I've put on a few lb just in the last few days! It's Ramadan and I've ended up eating with my husband when he breaks his fast around 9pm then going to bed. I've been trying to have a light lunch but then I'm starving by 9pm and overreacting and then going to bed. Something needs to change.

Will try to eat dinner at usual time on my own but it's nice to eat with him when things are so difficult during lockdown/ working hours etc and managing the 3 and 1 year old!

inthethickofit19 · 07/05/2020 08:38

Sorry I haven't had a chance to catch up but will read on from now.

DietChic · 07/05/2020 08:53

I just weighed and am 1lb down - taking into account minor fluctuations, I am one pound less than a month ago according to MFP. And that is likely the lack of food in me!

I think I need to drink more water probably and make it a priority.

NFD today. I record everything on MFP and rarely go mad. I think my metabolism is catching up with me too. It’s going to be a plodding sort of weight loss!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2020 09:10

That sounds challenging, Inthethick
I recommend you eat more at lunch - make it your main meal, then eat lightly for supper

Maybe something different to your OH, so you can make your own portion in advance
Or even have your supper at say 7pm and just have a cuppa with him

Well done on your FD, Chic

It's good you are not gaining during lockdown.

Drinking more water is a good idea
Fizzy water is fine, but Mosely & others say no other fizz, whether diet or full fat

Boost protein - especially fish, eggs, Greek or Skyr plain yoghurt
Pulses - beans / peas / lentils-
and different veg - aim for at least 5 portions veg per NFD plus 1-2 portions fruit
On FDs, you can cut out fruit, but still aim for at least 3 veg.

Are your carb portions too large ? They should be no more than 100g cooked weight per meal - halve the portions if you double carb

Are you having too many treats - which includes alcohol and lattes ?
I suggest you cut back to one sensible portion on 3 NFDs, so either 1 glass wine or 1 piece cake etc

Do you eat back exercise calories ?
You should never do so on FDs,
but that is often an issue on NFDs too, as gadgets & calculators usually over-estimate

If you calorie count, then just allow for exercise only via TDEE - Mosely advises calculating TDEE with one activity level below what you think

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2020 09:16

If you count calories, best to use Mosely's TDEE Calc
rather than TDEE from mfp other sites - they can vary

OP posts:
InterstellarDrifter · 07/05/2020 10:06

Half a lb down according to the scales today. I’m hoping totm has affected that because I did 3 fast days and wasn’t off track any other day except one.
Today, we are making pizzas at home so I need to sort something else out for myself.

homeschoolhell · 07/05/2020 10:44

morning everyone and well done on all the successful FDs and all the SVs Smile

drifter I feel your pain, I really struggle with keeping on track when the hormones hit, so difficult.

Was going to fast today but decided as its a long weekend, in order to minimise any overeating or drinking I will fast tomorrow instead, hope I can handle a friday fd Shock

good luck to all you thursday fasters Smile

yoikes · 07/05/2020 11:06

Hello all
May I join you?
I'm now the heaviest I've ever been:(
Have downloaded the book (seem to remember watching the tv show bsck in 2012 too...)
I'm aiming for a 2 stone loss to get to a healthy bmi :(
So...2 fast days. 500 cals. And watch your calories on non fast days...is that right?
Can you recommend a site that can easily calculate my tdee?
How long would 2 stone take to lose on 5:2 do you think?
I'll be doing 16:8 too as I don't normally eat breakfast
Thanks!

yoikes · 07/05/2020 11:07

Are you better fasting on busy days?
I'd assume so?

HedgeHogFoxBadger · 07/05/2020 11:16

I have just posted on an old thread!
Please can I join you? I want to lose a stone. I am working out everyday at home. Ive just calculated my TDEE and its 1980 which seems loads!How many calories do you eat on fasting days?

Waspie · 07/05/2020 11:42

Morning Fellow Fasters Smile

Well done on your FD on Tuesday down. I do similar to you: if I know I'm having a fairly calorific dinner I tend to have a decent protein based breakfast (like scrambled eggs) and then skip lunch.

TOTM is so difficult Interstellar. Don't worry about the scales; as BCF says weight loss is often not linear. I know mine isn't! That's why I'm trying to chart it from the time I started 5:2 rather than my last trip to the scales. It's definitely a more positive experience for me.

I love cottage pie MrD. For some reason my son won't eat mashed potato so I don't get to have it often as I refuse to cook multiple meals. I hope it's yummy Smile

Well done on your FD DietChic. A loss of 1lb is better than a gain. Well done Flowers

I couldn't go until 9pm without eating inthethickofit. It must be so much harder to observe when Ramadan falls in the spring/summer months.

Good luck fasting tomorrow homeschoolhell

I'm fasting today and barbequing tomorrow. Although unlike MrD I will not be camping! I like my creature comforts too much Grin

Anyone else fasting today? Good luck if you are!