5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Evening all

As promised I have returned - with a successful day under my belt. Currently had 1.5 litres of water plus a gigantic mug of decaf tea. Have another jug of water next to me to get through this evening. Have stuck to 3 meals (plus pudding so I don't have too much of a shock to the system at first ) Lunch was a baked potato with some leftover chicken curry in - bloody love a curry jacket. And dinner, slow cooked gammon with a big salad and a couple of small garlic bread slices followed by a cake in a mug Not perfect by a long shot, but should be under calories and at least start me back to the road of normality!

Hey Hummus - sounds like I need to take a leaf from your book

Thanks BigChoc - just glad I've managed to sort my head out and get back before the gain got too large - a stone is more than enough to be getting on with I'd say!

hey emcla bbq fillet steak sounds delicious, very jealous!

Tonight I need to sit and plan meals for tomorrow so prep for another successful day

Well done, MrD
You are back in the fasting swing, ready to rock

Well done mrd! Ooh, I’d love a fillet steak em.

I'm having that tomorrow, Hummus

With Mediteranean veg and cauli rice. Yum

Night all

All set for FD tomorrow - potential sweet snacks hidden, black coffee planned til as long as I can hold out (saying 2.30pm as an aim) then soup - which always takes me by surprise by how filling it is. Then smoked salmon and scrambled eggs on half a piece of toast and tooth brushing and bed immediately afterwards. It WILL WORK and it is ONLY two days a week!

Sleep well!

Good luck diet. I drink warm water by the pint and sparkling water with lemon. Sometimes I have a slump around 4 pm. My latest trick is an effervescent vit c drink. Keeps me going.

Mon FD for me. I have some fresh asparagus so will make a lovely soup, then my usual fish & veg combo for dinner. Good luck all.

Morning, all your recipes sounds lovely. I can never think of different meals and tend to have similar things a FD. Perhaps we should have a thread recipe book.

I am going to be on a mini today and again tomorrow and Thursday to see how it compares. Luckily I've got left over Sunday lunch so nice and healthy.

Good luck today, Chic, Moan, Moonlight
Lots of recipe links for different tastes in the OP under "How to Start"

Those on NFDs remember:

No snacking between meals EVER

There is a 5:2 FD Recipe Thread which I have just bumped

Morning all

Lots of lovely FD meals planned I see, inspiring as always everyone!

Another NFD for me today - Gammon with a big salad for lunch, and a baked potato with leftover chilli for dinner (have to use it all up!)

My jug of water is primed and ready next to me so I'm planning on another good day. First FDs will be next week when the kids are with their dad whilst I'm getting back in the swing - just in case I'm extra grumpy with any carb withdrawal!

I'm clearly going to have to get some fillet steak on next food shop as that is now going to be in my head until I do!

Dietchic - sounds like a good plan you have there

moanranger that sounds like a lovely plan too - and you should get a decent sized bit of fish calories wise with all that veg.

moonlight - I wouldn't worry, I often have periods when I'm having the same on FDs - not the end of the world a couple of times a week, and if it works it works!

That's a good plan, MrD
Keep swigging !

Maybe a daily walk too ?
You were a long distance walker, but an hour or so might get you in the mood

Morning All,

Can I join you please? Weighed in this morning at 188lbs :( I am 5 ft 7 and 46 years old in a fortnight and I'm so unhappy, eating and drinking my way through lockdown. Writing this I have realised that I have yo-yo'ed for the last 30 years and I'm absolutely sick of the daily battle I have in my head around food and weight loss - its exhausting! Anyone have any tips / websites / anything that can help deal with a **ed up relationship to food.

Planning on my FDs tomorrow and possibly thurs, I'm off to do some work now, will log on and have a read later. Hope everyone has a good day

Hey bigchoc - yes I will force myself for a daily walk this week - obviously long distance isn't allowed at the moment here - up to an hour only so will get back to that.

homeschoolhell - hi! Firstly try not to worry, I suspect fasting will sort some of your relationship with food just by the way it works - have a read of the OP and plan your meals for FDs well - in fact all meals for the week if you can, it will help.

Morning All

Welcome back MrD. I'm glad you are in a better place now Your NFD menu sounds very nice.

Thanks for bumping the 5:2 recipe thread BCF. I will take a look through it later. I am trying to find some non egg based FD meals. We had teriyaki salmon last week from BBC Good food website which was very simple and tasty so I will do that again.

DP has gone that last step and ordered new jeans in a SMALLER SIZE. I may have to kill him But honestly, I am pleased for him really. I seem to have plateaued again. This seems to be a theme for me: no gain but no loss for a couple of weeks but then a loss of a kilo or two. I'm trying not to let it stress me out. It's a WOL not a diet after all.

I'm having an FD today - usual black coffee for breakfast, chicken noodle soup for lunch and tuna salad for dinner.

Welcome homeschoolhell I'm a relative newcomer to 5:2 (started mid-Feb) but so far I am finding it reasonably easy to maintain. A force of will sometimes at about 4pm on FDs I must say, but other than that it's fine . For me the most important part of this lifestyle change I'm trying to adopt has been cutting out the snacks and the junk foods on non fast days and to have a better relationship with food generally. I've been using the My Fitness Pal app to track my calorie intake and it's really been an eye opener. Good luck!

Good luck Monday fasters

STS this morning but that’s fine - not too hungry just yet so that’s a blessing - I had been going to do a workout this morning then remember the rampaging hunger the last time I did that on a fast day so went back to sleep instead!

Morning everyone. I’m having a fast day today.
I’ve been doing some daily exercise which involves some hand weights and just marching, squatting, side stepping and lifting them for about 20 minutes whilst watching tv.
Can I just share how pert my arse is looking?? I’m astounded. It was a saggy flabby one before
I still have a way to go as there’s too much of it but squats really do work!

thanks for the welcome everyone

I've read the OP and some of the thread, not sure whether to MFP and count calories or try a more mindful approach and eat sensibly with no snacks etc, I like the idea of the mindful approach but not sure if I'm just too greedy for this, likewise, counting calories might make it feel like a chore and also if I know I have say 300 cals left but not hungry, I am more likely to eat them for the sake of eating them - I don't want that either! Maybe I'll just loosely check the calories of what I'm planning to eat and see how I get on with that?

well done on the pert bum interstellar fab!!!

waspie do you track everything on MFP?? gah, men loose so much quicker than us don't they, bloody infuriating, but must be nice to have DH doing it also for support??

NFD today but not eaten yet (because of working FT and trying to fit in home schooling - see MN name for my feelings on that!) so I think I'll have soup at lunch, maybe without the multiple slices of bread and butter I would normally have instead I'll have some kind of protein with it and some yog and fruit afterwards. No idea on dinner, can't think that far ahead yet.

mrd I never drink water so going to copy you a fill a jug full to get through today can I put a splash of squash in it

Welcome homeschoolhell 🙂

I suggest you try for 2 weeks without counting NFD calories, but

try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plan so you get plenty of sleep each night

On FDs, try to cut out squash completely.
All that is "banned" on FDs is empty calories, like junk and alcohol

On NFDS, squash can have more calories than you think, so I suggest you allocate yourself 100 cals for that - but measure out the amount for the day in advance

^Even diet drinks can spike insulin / appetite in some people, so monitor how you feel

This is a tactic that can help too if you tend to eat a lot of sweet "treats":
only track those calories, not the normal calories
So allow yourself say 300 calories total on an NFD, including squash^and plan them in advance for the day

Good luck today as well, Waspie, DRifter

and well done on the Pert Arse NSV, Drifter 😂
That indicates where some bodyfat has been lost and some muscle tightened, to reveal the perter bod

sts is fine, Chic
Almost noone loses every week and some folk have sts over lockdown as their 1st aim

For the first month or so I put absolutely everything I ate and drank into NFP homeschoolhell. I found it really helpful and it shattered some illusions about my eating habits too! I use it now during meal planning if I'm doing something new to see how it fits within my weekly plan so I keep within my TDEE. I am a spreadsheets and lists sort of person though

Oh Interstellar if a pert bum isn't a significant SV I don't know what is. Congratulations!

Just ate my first meal in 24 hrs. Liquids only for 24 hrs. Found it surprisingly ok. Good luck to all fasters today x

Well done on your fast, emcla
You need to break a longer fast with a small meal, or your tum may object and not much later in, either
Keep drinking plenty of water

Kitchen closed on 549. Not too terrible - I held out til 3.15pm for lunch before I cracked. Next FD is either Weds or Thursday. I am REALLY looking forward to a good solid lunch tomorrow!