5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done buried and drifter. Great news. Whoop whoop 🙌

Kitchen closed at 498 - happy with that. I am in bed, thinking about a big breakfast! Next FD will be Monday I think.

Wow some amazing sv here!
1lb down for me which is fine as I have had some bad nfd. Plan for this week is to stop snacking on NFD except for one day at the weekend.

Morning gang. Two FD done this week - also an inadvertent mini/IF... started trying to fast on Weds and got to 4pm and abandoned it for toast and wine! ;-) So fasted Mon and Thurs instead. Have definitely found it harder WFH but it helps that my OH is also started doing 5:2. Monday and one other planned next week and some tasty but not too calorific recipes planned for the weekend - is anyone else enjoying using the extra time for some more inventive cooking than usual?

Happy weekend all x

OH *has also started

@dietchic I literally woke at 2am and thought hard about this morning's breakfast before going back to sleep...!

After all the good news yesterday I am pleased to report a 3 pound loss. I am so happy.

Good luck to anyone fasting today

Well done on your FD yesterday, emcla, monnlight , Chic, Harriet and all the other Thursday fasters

Lots of fab SVs today 😁 👏🏼

Congratulations on your SV, Drifter
and such an encouraging milestone, to drop into the lower BMI class

Congratulations on your SV too, Giant
Good start
and well done on your exercise

An early run is a great habit NSV, Sydney

harriet It helps a lot when your partner is also fasting
btw, don't get frustrated if your OH loses more quickly - if a bloke:
men nearly always do - biology sucks sometimes

Congratulations on your SV too, Emcla
No wonder you are happy

Congratulations, Bestbees
That's steady progress and really good being able to keep up loss during lockdown

Everyone: Mosely (and I !) recommend ....

No Snacking EVER between meals, not at weekends or on holiday either
This tip can make a significant difference to loss

If you allow snacks on 1 day, then you have not broken the habit,
so it can return with a vengeance whenever you are stressed or take your eye off the ball.
Snacking keeps insulin levels raised and hinder fat burning; they also hinder repairing / improving your insulin metabolism

It's fine to have a treat on NFDs, but only do so as part of a meal
e.g.
latte as part of breakfast
or biscuit / cake / choc as dessert,
or crisps with a sandwich,
or 1 glass of wine with dinner

Reporting first weigh in, down slightly less than 1 kilo. This is the result of two weeks, 4 fast days in all. Doing the math, I reckon more than 0.5 lb a week is a good result (eg, each FD is around 1000 cal deficit, and assuming 4000 cal/lb)
It is still somewhat challenging, yesterday’s FD had me “hangry” (also lots of tech problems yesterday :( ), but as with my walking, ‘‘tis a habit to be formed.
Usual walking, typically between 3.5 -4 mi/day. I use a Misfit, and my calorie count on low excercise days is 1300-1400 cal. I only exceed my TDEE on exercise days, so it actually keeps me real. Misfit is not measuring my actual expenditure, but based on their algorithm using my age, weight, etc inputs. Happily, it never tells me to eat more.
Shattered ATM, I walk before I break fast - working on lowering insulin as much as possible.

I know you are right BFC. But we eat so early with the kids (5ish) that once a week it is lovely to have something extra. I am going to work on no snacks during the week.maybe I need to allow myself a mini meal of cheese, olives, crackers on on day and reduce what I eat with the children?

I am trying to skip breakfast on a few days a week to achieve 16;8 then also.

So true BCF : ^don't get frustrated if your OH loses more quickly - if a bloke:
men nearly always do - biology sucks sometimes^

harriet DP and I have been eating the same pretty much every day since we started 5:2 (thanks to lockdown) and he's lost 12Kg and I've lost 7Kg. I'm trying not to bitter as he talks about having to go to the next hole on his belt and getting into normal BMI range. I'm being a penguin of Madagascar and smiling and waving

Well done on all of the good SVs and NSVs

Hi everyone, hope you don't mind me posting in here but I am new to 5:2 and feeling a bit confused with how many calories I should be eating. I have been counting calories and doing 5:2 for the past few weeks aiming for 500 calories on fast days and around 1500 calories on non-fasting days. However I just calculated my BMR and TDEE and now I am thinking I need to up my calories a bit.

My BMR is 1730 calories and TDEE is 2076 calories. On non-fasting days do I eat at my BMR or my TDEE?

Thank you

Welcome, Cherry 🙂

Most folk manage to lose on 5:2 without counting NFD calories
However, if you prefer a target, then on NFDs, you should average around TDEE

The 2 FDs are the "diet days" when you achieve the weekly calorie deficit
while the 5 NFDs are "maintenance days" to keep this deficit

Congratulations on your SV, Moan
That's a good start on 1000 FDs, a relaxed rate of loss that you can sustain

btw, I recommend you check that your misfit is not set for a daily calorie reduction diet, like mfp often is,
because you might be eating below TDEE and hence probably feeling hungry.
So, a side check on this is that your 5 NFDs average about TDEE

Bestbees Yes, if you feel hungry during a long gap between meals, then add a minimeal - including some protein
That presumably gives you 3 or 4 meals /minimeals on the NFD ? which is fine

Waspie I hope your DP doesn't smirk too unbearably as he tightens his belt over that ever skinnier belly

Small loss of half a pound this week. It is not much but in the lockdown circumstances then I feel it is fine.

Might try and have three minis next week instead.

Well done on your SV, moonlight
Yes, see if you prefer a 3 miniFD system, whatever suits you

Well done to everyone for your SV and NSV. I am so frustrated as have not done well at all! Managed one mini fast and ate loads on all the other days. I am still really worried about my high BMI making me more vulnerable to coronavirus but it doesn't seem to be helping me stick to the plan. I was reading a thread yesterday where they were talking about how they don't give you proning treatment for breathing difficulties if you are over BMI 35 and anything over BMI 30 will be difficult, that really upset me but I still ended up eating a cake to cheer me up, so silly.

I know I could get my weight down quickly if I could stick to a strict plan like fast800 but at the same time I keep finding excuses for not doing it. I think it's a mental thing I'm feeling quite anxious and a bit down, at the moment.

Anyway I decided to try not to read too much worrying info on the covid and do a really easy version of 5:2 with 2 1000 fast days and 4 meals a day with no calorie counting on NFD.

Best to step away from all COVID news, Stripey if it worries you

If there is anything that you personally need to do, e.g. wear a mask, don't worry - you'll see it explained in v simple terms on the news headlines.
Repeated ad nauseum.

re weight:
I wouldn't advise anyone to do something as strict as Fast800 atm,
because it is tough on the body and - rather like running marathons - maybe not the best choice when your body needs all its strength

Sooo, your plan for 3 miniFDs sounds just what I would suggest for you:
should give a decent rate of loss at a relaxed pace, for minimum stress, while keeping your immune system healthy

No need to count atm on NFDs, but I suggest you start with 1 treat (sensible portion) per NFD
and also

try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Get plenty of sleep

Try this for 2-3 weeks and review progress

If it is a bit slow, I suggest you write down all you eat & drink

• not necessarily to mfp if that stresses you, but just so you can assess e.g. if there are too many treats, or if you have snacked between meals

Just be patient and you'll progress at the pace of your individual body & lifestyle
That weight, which took years to gain, won't all go in weeks.
"It's a WOL, not a race"

Oops, my visual disability blurs numbers sometimes, didn't see you want to try 2 miniFDs weekly

You can try that, but you'd get better results if you can manage 3 miniFDs
and having only 4 NFDs would be safer when you aren't counting calories.

Good morning all

So I'm back! In the last 6 weeks or whatever it's been since I posted I have finally got my head back in a good place. Unfortunately I've also managed to gain a stone! So.

Back to it. I've been having pretty good meals, but also grazing all the fecking day and not drinking any water really! So step one for this week - drinking plenty of water and getting back to 2 or 3 meals. Will prob start at 3 and then drop breakfast again to get back to my normal pattern. I'm expecting half the gain to drop off pretty quickly but the other half to take a while, we shall see!

I'm going to post every day this week as I remind myself the world is still turning!

Will check in again later this evening and see how everyone is doing!

Hey mrD!

Welcome back, MrD
3 meals is a good plan with your 2 key enablers:
No snacking between meals and keep drinking water
That'll zap your regain

How are you doing, Hummus ?

I’m ok bcf - weight still dropping (this is really not a problem I thought I’d have ) but I’m trying to batch cook lots of hearty dhals, stews etc so it’s easy to pull together a good meal.

The project I run takes a lot of surplus goods from supermarkets, so there are mornings (like this morning) when I am ankle-deep in high-end bread, ready meals, fruit, veg, tins that would otherwise have gone into the bin. It has really done something to my relationship with food.

Hummus I recommend drizzling olive oil on roast veg
and also buying some fish oil - I have a tbsp on any day I don't have fish, to boost my Vitamin D stores and hopefully my immune system
I'm having a good 1-2 hours outside most days too

Welcome back mrd.

I take a vit d supplement bigchoc and a cod liver oil capsule.

I was hungry today so had a big breakfast and roast dinner for lunch. Stuffed now. I was thinking of fasting until 1 tomorrow when we are planning a bbq. Would this work ? Changing the hours around. For the bbq it will be fillet steak , salad leaves, tomatoes, cucumber,onion and boiled potato.

Sounds a good plan tomorrow, emcla - and delicious