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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 89: Believe in yourself and your goals. You are braver than you think, more talented than you know, and capable of more than you imagine

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2020 14:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
HandsDownRoundTheTown · 10/02/2020 12:33

Well done listening

I know - harder during bleak months!

Smile
Waspie · 10/02/2020 13:25

Makes sense, thanks BigChocFrenzy. So using Mosely's TDEE calculator my NFD's should be 1887 calories on maintenance days. This seems quite high to me but I imagine you are pretty hungry the day after a FD.

I'm glad I posted so that you and Hummus could correct me on the grazing approach I was considering Smile

For lunch I have had a chicken & vegetable cup a soup and a diet pepsi. 80 Calories. Dinner will be tuna salad with a small amount of potato salad using left over boiled spuds and super light mayo. I had factored in a mid-afternoon snack of a small bag of popcorn (44cal) but I'll either do without or call it pudding.

I can see that fasting combined with a calorie controlled diet would cause a lot of people to fail but I wanted a small boost of a decent weight loss in the first few weeks just to show me that it works!

I have skimmed this thread but not read previous threads. How long have you all been following this diet, and have you seen rewards? I have heard that as well helping people to lose weight it's also a healthy lifestyle option longer term.

I read upthread about rewards for reaching personal milestones which sounds like a lovely idea.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 14:35

Congratulations on your SV, listening

Waspie Thre is a section "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" at the end of the OP, linking to peer-reviewed science research about fasting

Fasting boosts clearing out of old damaged cells in the body, so that new cells can be created.
It helps conditions related to insulin metabolism problems and also inflammation.

Specifically, it can help conditions like T2 / preT2, PCOS, asthma, some skin ailments, IBS
as well as weight loss & longterm weight management

I came to fasting while researching online about healthy aging
I found that some of the leading researchers in the world were recommending fasting, to possibly help reduce the risks of Parkinsons, T2, dementia and other ailments that occur increasingly as we age

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 14:40

If you are really eager to boost loss in the first couple of weeks, then keep to TDEE on NFDs, but improve the type of calories you consume:

So for those hardcore weeks, you could cut out alcohol and all junk calories
e.g. choc, cake, biscuits, sweets, pastries, pizza, crisps, deep-fried food

For best results and to form healthier longterm habits,
try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Lots of water & veg each day
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
Waspie · 10/02/2020 17:44

I've been reading some of your links BigChocFrenzy. I had heard about the idea of fasting being helpful for treating type 2 diabetes but I hadn't realised the other potential benefits.

I think the eating window concept is interesting too. I hadn't heard of 16:8 (or 12:12) but these make sense. I think evening munchies is a common way of blowing an otherwise quite healthy eating day (for me anyway).

I'm going to cook DS's tea now so this may be the moment when I realise I'm hungry, although I do have my lovely tuna salad to look forward to!

aberjenagain · 10/02/2020 18:43

Sorry, am struggling to keep up with the thread at the moment, but it’s still v helpful to ‘check in’ on FDs - helps keep me honest Grin

All done on about 600, leaving 700 for tomorrow.

aberjenagain · 10/02/2020 18:44

Also, need to spend some time focusing on healthy habits this week, as occasional snacking and excessive portions have snuck their way back in a little. Get thee hence!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 19:06

Well done on the FD, aber
Now it's time to focus on the above healthy 5:2 habits

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 10/02/2020 19:25

Well done aber and great SV listening
Welcome waspie loads of great advice in bigchocfrenzy links and she is a fountain of knowledge too.

Successful 500 FD here although I think I technically had a snack (late lunch, early dinner) think they were too close to constitute different meals (less than 2 hours between them). I’ve had an active day with a couple of hours digging at the allotment, swimming with the kids and PT session to do tonight... aiming for a mini tomorrow and 2nd FD on Wednesday to get me back on track after last weeks over indulgence... hope everyone else has had a good day.

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 10/02/2020 19:42

Good FD here.

I had a super spice Thai soup for tea (home made) with a handful of bare noodles in it.

What do others think about these? They are made by a brand called Barenaked (tho am sure there are others) and claim to be v low cal. Can’t really believe it as they are stodgy / filling.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 19:50

Well done, What, Hands

That soup sounds a good find, Hands

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 19:53

Your own soup recipe ?
Those near-zero cal noodles are the Marmite of dieting Grin - love / hate; I must admit I can't stand the fishy taste or mouth feel, but some folk love them

I've become very fond of cauliflower rice, in a stirfry with chicken / beef & other veg

OP posts:
HandsDownRoundTheTown · 10/02/2020 20:59

This one but I used fresh spinach instead of frozen, half n half coconut milk and skim milk, and added chillis, coriander and spring onion. Hot and delicious.

www.nigella.com/recipes/spinach-and-coconut-soup

Sorry I don’t have a calorie count for it.

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 10/02/2020 21:00

I love marmite.
Still not sure on the noodles - they’re a bit chompy...

EssentialHummus · 10/02/2020 21:39

Ooh, I’m very keen to try these noodles now!

SydneyCarton · 10/02/2020 21:58

Finished on 604; cashew nut chicken and rice, with a couple of squares of chocolate for pudding. Quite a lot of walking as well today, only did 25 minutes (one circuit of the park) at lunchtime as it was pretty cold and starting to rain, but I had a longer than usual walk to the station this morning to make up for it. 15,300 steps today Smile.

Well done on the FDs aber, Hands, what. Hope your first fast went well waspie

Ohyesiam · 10/02/2020 22:01

Well it’s been up and down here...
I had a very premenstrual failed treat day on Thursday, but I rated instead on Friday. All good, until we went to dinner at DH’s colleges on Sat night, and I kind of blew it at about 3416 calsShockMy excuse is I'm not much of a drinker and they had this red wine that was like liquid velvet. They were a bit dull and blinkered, and I was slightly boredGrin.
Was still full on Sunday and had a few hundred less than my TDEE, and a good fast day today, closing the kitchen at 494.
I’m STILL awaiting my period, thus is the way of peri menopause I guess.

Ohyesiam · 10/02/2020 22:01

Failed fast day, not treat day!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2020 22:24

Well done on your FD, sydney, Oh

Yep, peri was an unpredictable nuisance
I was lucky with the menopause itself, hardly any symptoms and no need for HRT - just the luck of the draw
However, once you get through to the stage of no more periods - it's worth it all Grin

OP posts:
HandsDownRoundTheTown · 10/02/2020 22:25

ohyesiam - sounds like it was worth it for a velvety delicious red! Well done on today.

aberjenagain · 11/02/2020 08:17

Morning all. Back again for 2nd FD of b2b. Woken up with a cracking headache, so have already had some marmite and paracetamol, and making sure to keep drinking.

Well done on the FDs yesterday sydney, ohyes, whattodo and hands.

Good luck to any fellow fasters today.

Re the zero noodles, I used to eat them, but one packet was too much for me, they don't keep well once opened, and for some strange reason my husband was unwilling to join me in eating them... Wink And I started to feel a bit uneasy about bulking out my plate with something with no nutrional value, so now I just try to bulk out with loads of veg. I think they're very helpful when you're getting started though and still adjusting to fasting in general and smaller platefuls etc.

aberjenagain · 11/02/2020 08:20

I am DREADING menopause. I am irrational enough as it is with hormonal mood swings now. Meno is also likely to coincide with my girls' teenage years. I feel for my poor husband. Think he might need to build himself a soundproofed mancave at the bottom of the garden.

harriethoyle · 11/02/2020 10:05

@Ohyesiam I NEED to know the name of that wine

Postponed yesterday's fast day - I was very low and unfocused and cold and just in totally the wrong head space. I live in West Yorkshire and the floods have been devastating although our house was luckily unaffected. So I chalked it up to an IF day and am fasting today!

Waspie · 11/02/2020 10:40

Morning everyone, thanks for the welcome Smile

I finished my first fast day and it was okay (I'm sure it gets harder) although I did wake up at 4am and my tummy was grumbling big time!

I think it's peri-menopause which has caused my weight gain. I don't feel that I've particularly changed my eating or exercise habits but I've gained about 15 kilos in the past year so I think it must be a slowing of my metabolism.

One positive of menopause I've found aberjen is that the hormonal migraines I used to get when I was pre-menstrual have pretty much stopped.

Best of luck to those fasting today Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 11/02/2020 10:54

Well done on a good 1st FD, Waspie
Next FD, you could try boosting protein, to help you feel fuller
However, it's mostly a matter of your body needing to adapt over the next couple of weeks

Good luck, aber, harriet and any other Tuesday fasters - MrD?

I hope the floods stay well away from you, harriet
Here, the Rhine came over the bank, so there was a row of benches and a couple of footbridges marooned in water, looking forlorn
However, my building is several meters higher, on a raised area, so thankfully no danger

I'm at the gym, just finished a few sets of leg weights;
I did the mornng spine flexibility and legs class before that.
Not an FD, but fasted training, so I'm looking forward to lunch soon !

Brilliant sunshine now, which I hope it lasts long enough for a relaxing early afternoon Rhine walk along the end of the path that isn't under water.

OP posts: