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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 89: Believe in yourself and your goals. You are braver than you think, more talented than you know, and capable of more than you imagine

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2020 14:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2020 09:06

Good luck, Moonlight, Inthethick
and also everyone who is starting WFH, FD or NFD

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 19/03/2020 09:39

Hey all

Just checking in really.

Waspie - massive congrats to you and your partner, glad you were able to still enjoy your day!

I am becoming more anxious by the day about the current situation - unprecedented times and all that. Its a strange feeling, but being higher risk because of my Asthma (luckily not BMI now - phew!) and knowing I have to send the kids to their dads at some point is panicking me. They've been isolated as their toddler had a temperature but I'll have to let them go back at some point... we shall see what happens day by day I guess.

OohMrDarcy · 19/03/2020 09:40

Jeez forgot to finish my post - no idea if / when I'll fast again this week, just thinking about it is too much for my brain at the moment.

moonlight1705 · 19/03/2020 09:44

Aggh working at home is just too much temptation. I think I'm going to adapt and have three minis a week instead - would that work BCF and then will include some weekend days too. How much is a mini?

Waspie · 19/03/2020 11:51

Morning fellow fasters Smile Thank you all for your kind messages Flowers

I'm joining you in fasting today moonlight inthethickofit emcla and in working from home! Luckily DP is also working at home so if one of us is tempted the other can give them a metaphorical shake!

I think you can only take it one day at a time MrD and try and stay philosophical. I know that's easy for me to say but I'm sending virtual, low calorie hugs in your direction Flowers

Well done Hummus, what a lovely thing to do. I'm sure vulnerable and elderly people will be really relieved that there are people volunteering to help them through their self isolations.

I'm so glad my son is older (year 7) and whilst I'm still not looking forward to the school closure as least he can entertain himself for the most part which toddlers and younger children can't. DS's school have also said that they expect 4 hours work each day and will be setting lessons via Google classroom and holding "lectures" online too.

Good luck Thursday fasters/minis and those doing b2b!

SydneyCarton · 19/03/2020 11:52

Thursday is my day off anyway so it hasn’t really kicked in yet. Next week will be the test with school and nursery closed. If I’m lucky my mother in law might still be able to take DS (she usually looks after him anyway) as he’s the most disruptive. The girls are almost 6 and almost 4 so slightly easier to contain, plus DD1 will have some home learning to do.

I’m a civil servant and to be honest I think a lot of the more policy based work will be put off anyway to focus on operational stuff and keeping services going as much as possible.

SydneyCarton · 19/03/2020 11:52

Forgot to say congratulations to you on your civil partnership Waspie!

inthethickofit19 · 19/03/2020 12:04

I'm feeling panicked and want to comfort eat 😢

Waspie · 19/03/2020 12:10

Thanks Sydney.

I hope you manage to get some help from your mother in law while school and nursery are closed. Are you able to work flexibly perhaps? Do a few hours while your girls are watching a movie and your MIL has your son and then a few more later in the day/evening - sort of spread out your hours to fit around the children's needs?

Waspie · 19/03/2020 12:13

Hopefully channelling BCF wisdom here inthethickofit19 but I'd suggest a glass of water and perhaps clean your teeth. It's almost lunchtime too - what are your plans for meals today?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2020 16:04

Good luck on your FD, Waspie

I don't know if I have that wisdom you suggested 😂 but a drink and teeth clean are useful if hunger or boredome are the problem
However, if it is stress, Inthethick, I find exercise & distraction are more effective
Can you go for a walk in the green - somewhere with few people - or do a Shred, or dance to music ?

Current advice for the age 60+ or with high BP, CVD, lung issues etc is - when allowed -
to go for walks somewhere quiet & rural, to build up heart and lungs, without overdoing things.
Walking is also calming, can help reduce BP and improves the barin's "executive functions"

I've had a gorgeous sunny 2-hour walk along the Rhine & through fields,
making the most of it in case we are all asked to stay home for a while
It was very relaxing & quiet, very Zen, listening to the birds and the water

MrD You're a keen walker, so that may help calm you down as well

moonlight 3 miniFDs is in fact a system I often suggest to those having problems with full FDs for whatever reason
It gives about the same loss as standard 5:2

So, same food rules are an FD - no booze or junk - but now you have 800-1,000 cals

Are you fasting today as well, Sydney ?

OP posts:
Waspie · 19/03/2020 16:37

Walking! See, you are very wise BCF Smile Your walk sounds lovely.

I find walking very relaxing, and yoga is also great for de-stressing.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2020 16:49

Yoga is another excellent idea, Waspie
Pilates too
(If you have a DVD / download)

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 19/03/2020 19:38

I've managed to survive! In bed relaxing now.

Toddler has come down with a temp so expecting potential wakeups.

My stress is related to being isolated with the young uns. The youngest is 11 months and it's been a really difficult journey with medical issues. He is like a Velcro baby. I was so looking forward to putting him into nursery and having a few days peace before I go back to work. But all that looks like it's up in the air now.

inthethickofit19 · 19/03/2020 19:40

BCF is my tdee is only 1550 so would 3 minis of 800-1000 still work or is my tdee too low? I only lose 2/3 of a lb with 5:2 so don't want it slower than that

Whattodowithaminute · 19/03/2020 19:47

It’s hard inthethick sounds like you’ve had a rough ride. Maybe try and plan something you enjoy each day and take real pleasure in it? I got up early this morning and had a cup of coffee on my own in the quiet, I tidied up at the end of the day listening to an audiobook...
Walks sound like a welcome break for as long as they will be allowed bcf.
I’ve made my DS do the shred with me for the last two mornings-I think it’s a routine we will establish for next week.
I will have 8, 6 and 3yo home from tomorrow and am dreading it a bit...
I’m going to go back to fasting asap-I think 3 minis might be my best strategy though... waiting for shopping will see what gets delivered and meal plan from there!
Stay well and strong everyone...

emcla · 19/03/2020 20:44

I completed my fd but had an awful headache and had to go to bed when I got in from work. Couldn’t take any meds due to nausea. Think it’s stress related as I’m a front line health care worker. Anyway feeling better now. Everyone take care. X.

moonlight1705 · 19/03/2020 20:56

Well today was not a FD is any shape or form nor a mini either. However it was well under TDEE so will count it as a non FD and try and have a mini tomorrow then again on Sunday.

Feeling cross that I seem to have no will power whatsoever when at home.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2020 21:41

Well done on nailing such a tough FD, emcla
No wonder you are stressed, on the front line, but your work is much appreciated 💐

Did you have a teasp Marmite during the day ?
Even if you dislike it, next FD glug it down like a med, say early afternoon, to help avoid headaches
And keep drinking water throughout the FD

Inthethick With a lowish TDEE, if you are anxious not to slow your current rate of loss, then I recommend keeping the 3 miniFDs within 900 cals

That's fab you've got DS doing Shred with you, What
Keeps you both occupied and fitter

A sub-TDEE NFD is fine, Moonlight ; the FD has just been moved a bit
Now you can plan the menu in advance again, when and what to eat - and remind yourself not to deviate from your plan, no ad hoc food changes.
Keep drinking water

You might find it helps next time to have a supply of chopped raw veg - no fruit, no dip or sauce - e.g. carrot, cuccumber, celery
ready to grab when you get desperate to nibble

OP posts:
Waspie · 20/03/2020 09:43

Well done emcla. Thank you for your work; it may not seem it sometimes (due to arseholes) but the majority of us are so grateful and thankful to you for your work Flowers

I weighed myself this morning and I'm the same as I was on Saturday, so no big gain following Tuesday which I consider a win, but I have managed two FDs this week so that's positive.

inthethickofit could you take your youngest out in a sling and walk? The weather is getting better so the fresh air may help you both relax and feel calmer Flowers

Good luck with your mini today moonlight

I was trying to talk my son into doing some daily yoga with me but he wasn't keen. He likes his team/ball sports which of course are all suspended and I don't want him turning into a couch potato. Perhaps he'd like Shred? I will google it. It's great that you can do this with your children what Smile

Good luck Friday fasters. Keep well everyone Brew

moonlight1705 · 20/03/2020 09:43

I'm on a non FD today as DH and I have decided to celebrate / commiserate the schools closing by getting a fish & chip takeaway delivered. I've put it into MFP and if I eat sensibly this breakfast and lunch then I should be able to have my favourite without going over 2,000 calories.

I will start again after weighing tomorrow morning and see about doing 3 minis in the week. Good plan on the veg BCF - will get that for next week assuming the shops have any left

BigChocFrenzy · 20/03/2020 10:05

Waspie Maybe he'd like pressups, squat jumps, shadow boxing / TaiBo

  • a sporty lad might like to go for PBs, build up his muscle & fitness

I'll be doing that sort of thing
I've also got a few weights at home, plus skipping rope, pullup bar, a kettlebell, an XCo set and punchbags
So far, I've just been taking long walks - can't resist sun on the Rhine ! - but it'll be colder & cloudy from tomorrow

Moonlight You can usually fit in that sort of treat on an NFD, because it isn't really junky;
try to add some mushy peas, tomato, go easy on the chips - but lashings of vinegar, yummmm ! - and it's a decent enough meal

OP posts:
SydneyCarton · 20/03/2020 15:45

No FD yesterday or today, although I'm trying to keep within TDEE and hopefully can get out for a run later. This was the first day of both DP and I trying to work from home with the 20 month old and the 3 year old, and it is not going to work without one of us being on active duty, especially when from today we'll have the 5 year old home as well.

Work are offering paid special leave to those who have caring responsibilities due to schools and nurseries closing, so I think we are going to request that he does 3 days a week and I do 2 days (we work for the same department) with the rest covered by special leave. His team can adjust his workload as they would for part-time workers. A lot of the stuff I'm working on might end up being shelved for the time being anyway, so going to 2 days should be manageable and I should still be able to dial into meetings on my "days off". We're very lucky to be in this position and it seems sensible to take it if offered, rather than trying to spread ourselves over full time work and childcare and end up more stressed and tired than ever.

I might try to do two minis on my 2 working days, or a b2b if possible. I would struggle fasting on a childcare day, even with no going outside, plus I like to eat with the children to model table manners, good eating etc. As long as I can maintain at 9st 10 or thereabouts I'm not too fussed about losing at the moment. I'm at a good weight and BMI so if I can carry on at the same level for the next 3-4 months that'll do for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/03/2020 18:26

That sounds a very sensible plan, Sydney
b2b miniFDs on your 2 working days; just aim to sts during these exceptional circs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/03/2020 18:28

and of course keep good 5:2 habits on the NFDs,
expecially no snacking and keeping NHS alcohol limits
with plenty of water and lots of veg to support your immune system

OP posts: