5:2 Thread number 89: Believe in yourself and your goals. You are braver than you think, more talented than you know, and capable of more than you imagine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Sydney - great news on the weight loss! Hurray.

I had exactly the same as you last week - shivery and sore tummy tho not actually sick. I think it was some kind of bug.

Hope your DD is ok.

I’m at a conference today so will trying to resist cake breaks and endless coffee refills. Wish me luck.

Why is theory behind daily cal allowance being 650 rather than 500 when doing B2Bs?

Wow Sydney a great SV there.

I'm doing a FD today as well hands so good luck with your conference. I do't think I've got anything to trip me up at all - people have eaten all the cake in the staff kitchen so no temptation at all.

I didn't have a great non FD yesterday as ended up having a snack in the afternoon.

Excellent work sydney great achievement!

Migraine yesterday added an extra FD into my week so this morning I’m back to pre half term weight of 11st 7. Aiming for 2 NFD at TDEE and then back to proper 5:2 next week.

80s go at your own pace you will get there slow and steady-I’m 24lbs down and generally haven’t felt like I’m on a diet at all-I’m finding the FD easier and even a ‘blow out’ day now doesn’t look as bad as it used to... good luck.

Congratulations on your SV, Sydney
and on getting into the 9 stone somethings
Lowest adult weight is a fantastic milestone !

I hope the DC are soon fighting fit again

Congratulations on your SV as well, What

Well done on your FD, Harriet

Hands The 650 cals for b2b is based on research and human trials on overweight women by Dr Michelle Harvie.
She was sponsored by cancer research charities and in fact her version of 5:2 was before Mosely, but she wrote her book later (and she's not a very good writer) so it never took off in the same way

imo, the reason why 650 cals works as well is that you start FD2 already fasted
That's also why I suggest that if someone has done an ordinary 500 FD1 and suddenly decides to do a b2b, that they can go to 800 cals for the same 1300 total for the b2b

For those in maintenance, a b2b of 800 cals per FD is a useful system, either weekly or every 2 weeks, depending on the individual

Morning All. Fast day here too. Black coffee for breakfast, cup a soup for lunch and tuna & hard boiled egg salad for dinner.

I've been so pleased to read your posts ladies, I've really started to feel a bit down because I lost 2Kg in the first week but nothing at all since. I do need to remind myself that it's a marathon not a sprint and your posts have pulled me up and re-motivated me. Thank you

Epic small victory Sydney. I hope you are all feeling better soon.

Well done on your b2b harriet" and DV hands*.

80s I've only been doing 5:2 for slightly under 3 weeks and I have been loathe to weigh myself too. However a friend told me to weigh myself in kilos rather than stones and weirdly it's worked. I know the number the scales is telling me is bad but it doesn't seem as real somehow as stones and pounds would be. I do know how illogical that sounds!

Well done on your b2b *harriet" and DV hands.

This ^ should have read "Well done on your b2b harriet and SV hands

(must learn to preview)

FD here today, whose with me?

Cycle is due on Saturday. Had an gastroscopy on Tuesday and feel so bloated. Not ate healthy last two days but shouldn't be too far off NFD allowance.

Excellent Sydney!!!

BCF so does b2b @650 cals each achieve the same result as non consecutive fasts @ 500 cals?

Wow Sydney, that's brilliant!!£ I hope you're all fighting fit soon
Thanks @Whattodowithaminute and @Waspie and @Bigchoc. Sorry I'm poor at tagging . I'm sticking with the clothes fit at present, I'll have a new old pair of jeans by the weekend to wear and maybe a dress over leggings.
FD here today. I'll try and have a swim over lunchtime then have all my calories at teatime, I find that that works best, although I do save a few for milk in my copious cups of coffee
Have a lovely day all. It's sunny, cloudy, dark, bright, rainy, hail and dry here today!

Good luck, Waspie, Inthethick, 80s and any other Thursday fasters

Crikey, very cold here and we might even get the first snow of the year in my region 🥶

Waspie If you haven't lost anything since the first week, could you be eating back the FD deficit on the NFDs ?
Mosely originally wrote that NFDs should be "normal eating," but many people who have been considerably overweight for quite some time find they need to retrain their "normal" to what their body can burn.
NFDs should be maintenance days, around TDEE, to maintain the FD deficit

If you aren't sure, then one week on mfp - so not longterm - can highlight hidden calorie bombs, portion size of even healthy food, amount of sugar, alcohol etc

What can often block loss:

• Snacking / grazing between meals - don't do this even on WEs
• Alcohol above NHS guidelines
• Too high a % of calories being "junky" - cake, biscuits, sweets, crisps, pizza, chips etc

What can help too:

• Try shortening your eating window on NFDs

• start with a 12 hour window, e.g start eating at 8am and finish by 8 pm, then gradually move to 10 hours, or 8 hours if that is sustainable for you.

If you have already checked all this, then just stay focused and you will lose at your own pace

• some people are just "hard losers" on any diet - they are usually insulin resistant / have thyroid issues / PCOS / taking certain medications etc

Inthethick Yes, b2b on 650 gives about the same as non-consecutive 500 cal FDs
those with high TDEE

What is important with fasting is to choose what will be sustainable for you to have 2 weekly FDs
Some folk like single FDs, some b2b, some mix it up

5:2 works more quickly with 500 FDs (women) / 600 (men)
but people may do better on 800 cals - more sustainable - if they have a high TDEE (about 2400+)
e.g. several stone to lose / young / tall / intense exerciser / male

Inthethick Yes, b2b on 650 gives about the same as non-consecutive 500 cal FDs

What is important with fasting is to choose what will be sustainable for you to have 2 weekly FDs
Some folk like single FDs, some b2b, some mix it up

5:2 works more quickly with 500 FDs (women) / 600 (men)
but people may do better on 800 cals - more sustainable - if they have a high TDEE (about 2400+)
e.g. several stone to lose / young / tall / intense exerciser / male

Waspie I've been doing this since September roughly and I've lost 4.8kg so not a huge amount but for me it is great. I am big and have been on yoyo diets all my adult life so a slow and steady loss is good for me. I have a thyroid problem which was undiagnosed until 5 years ago and it took until I was pregnant and under a consultant to get the right level of levothyroxine.

I suppose it has been an average of about 1kg a month loss but better this than putting on 1kg a month.

I've only had one day when I went over TDEE BigChoc and this was by 40 calories. The other days I'm aiming for 400 below TDEE and achieving most of the time. I've cut all snacks/junk and eating between meals. I'm not drinking too much either. I am (TMI alert) horribly constipated and I think this is a factor. I need to adjust my new diet to allow more fibre! The biggest factor just seems to be a total shutdown of my metabolism with peri-menopause. I've put on about 2 stones in the year since I became peri (with no particular change to my eating habits) and this is what I'm now trying to shift. I also suspect I may have an underactive thyroid. If I continue with no discernible weight loss I will make an appointment with my GP.

I popped out earlier to buy salad and discovered Hartley's "10 Cal" jelly pots. I shall have one for dessert

Sounds like you are doing all the right things, Waspie
Probably you could v quickly drop a few lb, if only you could have a few dumps

For constipation
Unless prescribed by your doctor, you may find that fibre supplements, extra bran etc can actually worsen constipation, if they block you up further

Try this gentle remedy:

- 1 tbsp olive oil 
- 1 teasp lemon juice
Best to take on an empty tum, so early morning or a few hrs after eating.

and
drink lots of water every day

Do see your GP if the problem persists say another couple of weeks

That's seeing your GP re the constipation, I mean

Constipation

• Drink lots of water daily +Aim to eat at least 5 portions of non-starchy veg per day - Mosely says no more than 1-2 portions fruit
• Try adding beans, peas, lentils to your diet - low cal, v healthy and loaded with fibre

If you've been restricting calories daily for a year or so, that in itself can lower metabolic rate for some folk
To raise metabolism, I suggest eating up to your full TDEE on most days, instead of going under by so much
Was that 1800, 1900 for you ?

MENOPAUSE, Weight Gain & Control
(looong & some geeky stuff ! Applies to perimenopause too)

Hormonal changes leading to weight gain:

• High insulin levels tend to fat storage
• Prolonged high cortisol tends to hinder fat-burning.

What naturally counteracts these before peri:

• Estrogen is a hormone that counteracts insulin & cortisol.
• Progesterone counterracts cortisol only.

Younger women have high levels of these 2 hormones;
hence, weight control is easier.

At peri / menopause, when both hormones drop drastically, a woman typically:

1. has slower metabolism due to much lower estrogen. Real TDEE (average daily calories burned) drops and often averages 200-400 below calculated value.

5:2 is a great help is cutting calories while keeping "normal" food the other 5 days
Tip: cut out all snacks between meals, FDs and NFDs.
This change in itself can help insulin metabolism

Often no need to mfp, but if you already do, then on NFDs, aim for a TDEE about 15% lower than the calculated value.

2. is more sensitive to simple carbs, even fruit, due to increased insulin resistance. Fat is likely to be added around abdomen, where it increases health risks. So:

• replace most simple carbs by complex ones, e.g. sweet potato, oats (not istant), wholegrain bread, brown / red rice, quinoa
• reduce even complex carb portions, e.g. bread to 2 wholegrain slices / 1 roll , pasta or rice to a fist-sized portion daily.
• Reduce fruit to max 2 portions daily
• Drastically reduce junk food, especially sweet junk, even home-cooked baking So cut right back on cake, biscuits, choc, crisps, deep-fried food, takeaways

3. is more likely to have thyroid imbalance^

• low estrogen can slow thyroid function.

Anyone with a previously sluggish thyroid (women are more prone to this) will likely find pre-menopause worsens this considerably.
Consult your GP if you suspect thyroid issues, e.g. weight gain, skin problems, throat problems

4. Loss of muscle mass, which lowers metabolism and raises health risks. Occurs from age 25 for all non-exercisers; it accelerates around menopause.

To retain / build muscle requires weight-bearing exercise, e.g. squats, pressups, lifting.
Cardio is NOT sufficient and may even increase muscle loss.

5. is more vulnerable to stress. Anyone chronically stressed will have raised cortisol levels, tending to increased fat storage.

As well as final career surge, caring for elderly parents, teenagers, uni students.
So make time for yourself too, to relax, e.g. meditation, foot massage, spa day.
Even just time alone with music, a book, soaking in a warm bath or a foot bath with epsom salts.

"Often no need to mfp, but if you already do, then on NFDs, aim for a TDEE about 15% lower than the calculated value."

In your case - if you have been restricting calories for a long time - don't go below 15% cut, so maximum 300 cals on say 2-3 NFDs

and on the other NFDs, try eating up to your full TDEE, if hungry

• obviously, if you feel full, stop eating

Thank you BigChocFrenzy, you are very generous with your time and advice, I do appreciate it.

I am keeping a food diary on mfp - not just for the calorie count and progress sections but to make me more aware of the elements which comprise the food I'm eating. I am not as active as I should be. I have a sedentary office job but I do walk the dog several miles each day so I do get fresh air and some exercise every day.

I will get there - I want this to be a long term change to my lifestyle and I'm committed to making it work. I will take on board your advice (I'm going to copy it into a doc so that don't lose it). It's my 6th fast day today and usually by about this time I'm counting the minutes to dinner but today I'm feeling pretty good if a bit bunged up

Thinking longterm is the best strategy, Waspie

I hope the fasters are keeping warm

I looked out of the window this afternoon after a couple of hours reading - and suddenly saw thick snow everywhere and falling
We haven't had a single flake of snow all winter until now, almost Spring

Ended the day on 569 so pleased with that but I'm freezing. Don't know how you are coping with snow bigchoc as I just want to curl up on the sofa and it's not too bad here.

How have you done today hands?

Well done, moon
Do you have any herbal tea, to warm you up ?

Morning all,

SV here today - 9 stone 10.7lbs yesterday I weighed 9 stone 13.8 lbs. My cycle arrived yesterday (two days early) and I felt so bloated and wanted to binge-eat but I pushed through as your words echoed in my ear BCF about keeping strong and it paying off 💪 thank you so much, your advice is always invaluable!

So pleased you guys encouraged me to keep going and hopefully be on my way to goal by the wedding in April. I've set myself a new goal of just under 9.5 stone by Easter weekend which is 44 days away.

Excellent inthethick great achievement and sounds like a realistic next goal too!

Well done on resisting the totom munchies, Inthethick
That's a totm NSV !

Your new goal is sensible and you'll appreciate it at the wedding