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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 89: Believe in yourself and your goals. You are braver than you think, more talented than you know, and capable of more than you imagine

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2020 14:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Whattodowithaminute · 20/02/2020 19:08

lania sounds like you’re having a really rough time, an early night and a bath? Hopefully that hip settles soon now the injection is in.

inthethick you’ve done really well today and achieved a FD. Stop now Can you go and brush your teeth and head to bed for an early night? Plan your breakfast for tomorrow? I normally have eggs/omelette or something filling the morning after a fast to prevent binge eating.

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 20/02/2020 19:17

Well done inthethick and any other FDers. Just heading out for drinks with friends. Going to buy some dinner as well to try and keep alcohol consumption balanced.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/02/2020 21:23

Well done on your FD, inthethick
As what said, cleaning your teeth is a very good tactic to avoid nibbling again - the clean taste makes food less tempting

lania What a torrid time, poor you ! 💐
but you have done so well to equip your DD for life in the wider world
I hope the physio helps your aches v quickly
Sympathies too that you are stuck in courier chaos

I'm just back from a colleagues retirement bash at an excellent tapas restaurant, design steampunk / engineering retro

As usual, all other colleagues are blokes
The ladies loo there has a huge photo from 1950 of 3 hunky workers stripped to the waist and washing themselves under the fountain
So I naturally enquired what picture the mens' loo had Blush
They said it also has a picture of 3 blokes washing, Hmm then one of them nipped down to take a photo for me:
the 3 men are fully dressed, just washing their hands !
Much mirth when I said what the blokes were doing in our loo photo Grin

Food was great too, yum Mediteranean tapas < breathes aioli all over thread >

OP posts:
Vinosaurus · 20/02/2020 21:45

Hi all, I'm a 5:2 newbie, on my second fast day today (first on Monday, think mon and thurs will be my regular days). GP suggested loosing some weight to potentially help out with my GERD, plus I don't fit in to so many clothes at the moment.

Want to lose 15KG, and know this it isn't a quick fix, but it feels so much more manageable than standard diets.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/02/2020 22:28

Welcome, vino 🙂 and good luck in reaching your goals

Lots of info & links in the "how to start" section of the OP
Best tips:
no snacking between meals
and plan out your FD menu in advance the day before

I suggest also that you monitor & record your GERD symptoms, to see if fasting affects them

OP posts:
HandsDownRoundTheTown · 20/02/2020 23:35

Hi vino Smile
I’ve been in and out of this thread for a few years now but firmly in right now!

SydneyCarton · 21/02/2020 06:58

Thanks BigChoc. A side effect of the painkillers is constipation, which may have something to do with it Blush. I only took them Wednesday and Thursday morning as my shoulder is much better but there has been no, er, motion in that area! I’ve also felt very drowsy and a bit queasy and bloated (nice) and have gone to bed without dinner both days as just didn’t feel like eating.

I won’t get a chance for a FD as it’s half term this week but will focus on TDEE today and the weekend, then back on it for Monday. Lent is coming up which usually means giving up crisps and booze for me; that should definitely help!

Hope you’re feeling better lania, that sounds like a tough time physically and emotionally. My three are still tiny and it seems light years away before they move out!

Waspie · 21/02/2020 10:32

Morning all Smile

BigChoc and whattodowithaminute. Yes, you're both correct, I'm trying to run a low(er) calorie lifestyle type diet with 5:2 IF which probably isn't the best way to do it. I don't think my calculated TDEE is correct though as it seems very high. I will work it out again at the weekend.

I had my fourth FD yesterday and closed at 320 calories. I did not feel good by bedtime though. I'd had a really hectic day at work and not drunk nearly enough water I think. By the time I got home to my tuna salad I was achy and shivering and had a horrid headache.

Welcome Vinosaurus I'm a newbie too. Good luck!

Your evening sound great BigChoc. I like the reverse sexism too - very unusual!

DP went to collect our rings yesterday and mine fits perfectly but his is a little too large. As we've only got 3 weeks until the ceremony we've decided to wait until afterwards to have it re-sized. Mine is gorgeous Grin It's not a traditional ring; it's a copy of a Boodles Raindance ring which is a style I've loved since I saw one in the V&A when I was younger.

I hope you feel better soon Lania be gentle with yourself; you are having a tough time and don't need to load more pressure on yourself Flowers

Well done on your FD inthethick. I agree with cleaning your teeth, I've found this helps a lot.

Good luck Friday fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2020 14:27

"I'm trying to run a low(er) calorie lifestyle type diet with 5:2 IF which probably isn't the best way to do it."

waspie Unfortunately, that will maximise hunger
Most people who try combining 2 FDs with a significant daily CR soon crash out

Strangely, if you go down to 800 daily calories as in Fast800 / Exante or other meal replacement system, the worst hunger should disappear after 2 days

That is because 800 cals is buffered fasting, which impacts your body differently to a standard daily calorie deficit at 1200 cals or whatever

So, if you really want to boost loss, I suggest a couple of weeks on daily 800, then resume normal 5:2 with TDEE on NFDs

I recommend using Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others :
Calc TDEE

If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think
because most people & gadgets significantly OVER-estimate exercise calories.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2020 14:32

Sydney To help constipation, I recommend boosting veg and water
Also try porridge & fruit for breakfast or another mealtime, or pnut butter on wholegrain toast

Your plans for Lent sound very helpful - giving up booze, crisps, also pizza, cake, biscuits and other beige food

OP posts:
Waspie · 21/02/2020 18:37

I used that calculator BigChoc and chose "sedentary" as my activity level and my TDEE is 1871. It just seems so high!

I hadn't planned to combine both the IF and the low calorie for long. I just know myself and know that if I don't see a weight loss initially I will get disillusioned. On days other than FD I have been concentrating on no snacks and junk food rather than reducing meals.

ListeningQuietly · 21/02/2020 18:43

just checking in to say that I'm still plodding on .... warmer weather would help

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 21/02/2020 19:54

Plodding too!

Have not had a great eating day today - ended up wolfing chocolate-covered pretzels at work simply because they were there and a bag of crisps after tea.

These were definitely snacks and not part of a proper meal.

Back on the case tomorrow.

Laniakea · 21/02/2020 21:09

Thanks everyone Flowers

It wasn’t raining here today & dh was working from home so I left him to keep an eye on the kids & took myself (& a new audio book) off for along walk. It was great - 23k steps today & my leg held up okay - to clear my head. Came home & started the process of scrubbing dd1’s bedroom Grin

NFD - ate pretty much exactly TDEE ... stir fry & tofu for breakfast (!) , a couple of coffees, beans on toast for dinner (massive craving) & my weekly half a Ritter sport (dh gets the other half) ... marzipan this time 250 calories well spent!

Hope you all have a lovely weekend - less rain more sun please weather gods.

inthethickofit19 · 22/02/2020 07:47

9 stone 12.2lbs! Broke into the 9's! Now to keep going..

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2020 08:54

Congratulations on your SV, inthethick
and nailing a milestone

Aim to have a sensible WE, with 5:2 healthy habits, so you start next week still in the 9 stone somethings

Sounds like you were bored at work or stressed, hands and bored after ea
Can you plan alternatives for the future

e.g. work: a quick walk up & down stairs, or some stretchign exercises in your chair ?
Or have some of those destress gadgets to squeeze in your hand

After tea: do self-care, nails, craft, anything to keep your hands occupied
Go for a walk if it's still light

This WE, focusing on healthy NFD habits would help you get on track
e.g. much more water and no snacking
It's easier to completely cut out all snacking / grating between meals, even on holiday, to completely break the habit,
rather than allowing snacks on some days

That's an excellent walk Lania
and it made time for you to enjoy your new audiobook

Lovely sunny day here on the Rhine, so I'm off for a walk soon too Smile

Any Saturday fasters ?

OP posts:
Laniakea · 22/02/2020 09:17

Wonderful inthethickofit19! Congrats it’s a great feeling!

NFD here, fasting tomorrow then a b2b probably on Wednesday & Thursday ... next weekend will be calorific (my birthday!).

moonlight1705 · 22/02/2020 09:38

Morning all, I've had a lovely week off with DH and we've done loads of fun things including cinema. I even had time to get those eyebrows done and have a lovely new hair cut so feeling swish.

I weighed and have lost another 1/2 lb which is good as have not done a FD at all this week.

Looks like everyone is having a good week, love the SV inthethick.

Whattodowithaminute · 22/02/2020 09:56

Great work inthethick and moonlight
I’m bucking the trend having put on 4lb this week... back on it for Monday/Thursday FD this week and a lot of healthy habits...

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2020 11:53

Well done on your SV, moon

  • must have been reasonable NFDs all week, to achieve that without any FDs

Don't worry, what
If you nail your FDs this week and have sensible NFDs, you'll soon be back on track

OP posts:
Laniakea · 23/02/2020 10:46

I’m fasting today, anyone else?

EssentialHummus · 23/02/2020 12:31

A very different check-in from me today - I just found out that I’m in the early stages of pregnancy, so no more fasting for me for a while if everything goes OK. I’m now on the “can’t stomach anything, sense of smell like a bloodhound” diet Grin. But I’ll lurk and cheerlead from the sidelines, if that’s ok with everyone.

Good luck today lania.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2020 12:37

Congratulations, Hummus 💐
The 5:2 stork again !
Yes, do stay and comment; it's very helpful

Good luck, lania
I'm fasting too
I've had morning spin and a very breezy Rhine walk, just about to have my Frosta low carb Oriental chicken plus a little grilled Mediteranean veg

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 23/02/2020 14:29

Lovely news hummus congratulations
Hope you both have a good day lania and bigchoc

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 23/02/2020 14:45

Oh Hummus that’s so wonderful.

Really really pleased for you even if it means you’ll leave the 5/2 gang for a bit.

I binged a bit (lot...) yesterday but back on track today. I also find I get terrible skin breakouts now from sugar and alcohol so that is another reason to stick to sensible NFDs.

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