5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Morning all

Well done on all the SVs moonlight and pineapple!

Welcome newbies

STS this week which I am a tad miffed at but the remind myself that I've lost well since getting back from holidays so not the end of the world to have a sticky week. I know the cals should have given a loss so its either the snacks stopping it (but I didn't have THAT many) or its just a holding week and my body is catching up with itself. I am happy to keep on keeping on and see when the losses start again

You did really well, Arifa and you broke your fast in a very sensible way
Tackling world hunger & poverty is a worthy cause, so I'll put your Just Giving link here again

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/arifa-saima

Congratulations on your SV milestone, pineapple
Fab progress and also on your dry NSV - better sleep will help your physical & emotional well-being

Many women have a whoosh the FD after totm ends, because during totm loss usually slows down or the bloating even causes a temporary blip gain
So noone get discouraged during totm - also I recommend no weighing then, because the totm temporary water retention can make the scales meaningless

Well done, Moonlight
it's moving in the right direction
We all have slower weeks and occasionally a whoosh

You have done brilliantly, MrD to have achieved 4 st loss
On this long journey, you will inevitably have some weeks when you sts, or occasionally even a blip or a longer plateau
Stay focused and you know that loss will resume

Welcome, Glasgow
Well done on your earlier fast and SV

Several old fasting hands (lurking occasionally) do 5:2 for the health benefits, as that was Mosely's original quest - weight loss was a happy side benefit

Me too - back in 2013, I examined peer-reviewed science on healthy aging and I soon found that the leading researchers were advocating intermittent / periodic fasting.
There are also benefits for younger people re pre-T2, PCOS, asthma, IBS, some skin ailments
At the end of the OP I have a "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" listing some of the science papers.

Thanks. When I did the longer fast I felt good by the end. That’s what interests me most now!

But I’m worried I’m over compensating in non fast days...!

To help keep control of NFDs, try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, , not on their own
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Thank you BCF for your support and to everyone else. I’m so gald to be a part of this community surrounded by caring and supportive women - you are all amazing! Xx

Arifa 🤛🏼

FD here - anyone else about?

It’s my first FD with a higher calorie allowance (for maintenance), and I’m slightly still feeing my way. Just coffee so far, then planning stir fries for lunch and dinner.

Welcome glasgow, love your user name! (My toddler is an enormous ABBA fan, it’s on on a loop here.)

Good luck, Hummus
Are you on 800 cals for maintenance FDs ? The extra does make it much easier

I'm joining you today
A sunny day, so can't stay indoors - off for a Rhine walk now

Yes, trying 800 bigchoc - will reassess if the weight goes on or off.

Good luck today, sounds lovely there!

I’m on a FD. Hello!

I have no idea how to count calories as very new to all this and have three young DCs. So it’s a bit hit or miss! I’m also doing 800 FD as I read there isn’t a lot of difference in terms of benefit between 500 and 800 and 800 is doable.

glasgow to begin with I ate a lot of ready lo-cal meals, because that took the thinking out for me (I personally rate Lidl and Asda's, but Sainsbury's aren't bad either). But if you can use MyFitnessPal or similar that's great - esp. if you eat repetitively, since you'll then know for the next time what the calories are like.

glasgow Many people use ready meals, including soups
Others use mfp just for FDs

Easing in with 800 cals is fine
However, depending on your individual body, after the intitial 2 weeks loss, you may find progress is a bit slower than expected:

Those extra 600 cals per week won't matter if you have a high TDEE - tall, young, lot to lose, intense exercise, or of course male - because you'll still have a high weekly calorie deficit

However, if your TDEE is only around 1500 (short, sedentary, or not much to lose) then your weekly deficit on 500 cals would only be 2000 - even that much is only if your NFDs are sensible - about ⅔ lb loss weekly
So reducing that to 1400 weekly would give quite slow progress

So, see how you go and review after a few weeks, once you have adapted to fasting.

Typically late FD check in from me Wasn’t too sure if I was going to fast today, but I’ve got a conference tomorrow and a couple of team days out of the office this week so I thought I might get one in now, rather than getting stuck later in the week. I’ve discovered that a boxercise class at lunchtime is a brilliant way to skip Sunday lunch without the dcs noticing, and helps remove temptation, too! Aiming to eat a bit eaerlier than usual this evening, so just need to decide between some leftover salmon & asparagus or a portion of the butternut squash tagine which I batch cooked for the freezer this morning.

Pineapple, congrats on an amazing SV!

Welcome Glasgow - it’s a fab community on here and you’ll get loads of great advice. I’m another who finds they feel way better (higher energy, clearer head) when I fast regularly. I also used ready meals to begin with (the quorn lasagne and cottage pies are both around 400cal, which allowed me a bit of soup or something at lunch) but I much prefer cooking for myself. I tend to batch cook on a Sunday so my meals are ready to go from the freezer, which takes a lot of the pain out of planning on the day!

Moonlight and MrD - holding steady is definitely winning...the next drop will come soon enough

Are you doing a b2b Hummus?

That sounds yummy filly. I may b2b - I think I’ll check the scales in the morning and see how I go.

Nice to see so much Sunday activity!

Thanks - that’s helpful. I’m not sure ready meals are for me as I like real food. But I am pretty ignorant so will maybe get a recipe book. It’s just the thought of weighing my ingredients IYSWIM and the time.

I think my BMR is high as I do quite a lot of sport, am tall. I don’t need to lose much weight.

But I don’t want to gain weight either as I’m now mid 40s. To be honest, my main issue is my addiction to food - even healthy food - and so if I can ha step FD a week, I figured the odd bit of cake in the week would be ok!

Jesus so many typos. Sorry. Fasting has slowed my brain!!

Ended up eating not very much yesterday and scales showed a small loss today, so no b2b for me, though I'm planning some torture exercise with Jillian Michaels while DD is at nursery. mrd have you and Ms Michaels gotten reacquainted yet??!

Good luck to all Monday fasters!

Well done essential. Any loss is great imo.

I’m fasting today. Good luck to anyone else who’s on board.

How do you feel doing exercise on FD?

I am fine doing walking and yoga but any more and I feel a bit weak. Maybe just need time to get used to it.

I lose two pounds overnight after a FD but not sure if it’s not muscle

Well done on your FD and SV, Hummus
and enjoy your JM torture

Good luck, emcla and any other Monday fasters

Well done on your SV, Glasgow
Some of that will be loss of retained water, some bodyfat, but NONE will be mucle

One of the really good things about intermittent fasting is that it preserves muscle,
unlike some other diets in which 25% or more of longterm loss can be muscle

Exercise

While you are adapting to fasting and / or or if your training is normally much longer than 60 mins,
While you feel a bit weak, I suggest you plan your training rest & recovery days for FDs, ideally with a good walk outside, weather permitting

Once adapted, most people can exercise, but some prefer to stick to a brisk walk.
It's individual, so go with how you feel.

On FDs - AND on the morning after - avoid prolonged medium intensity cardio,
i.e. more than about 40 mins of running, swimming or elliptical trainer etc
This is because the fuel they use comes preferentially from your glycogen stores, which will be depleted by fasting

Instead, the best exercise is HIIT or lifting / resistance, because these are able to access more of your stored bodyfat for fuel
Avoid more than about 60 mins even of these though, at least while your body is still adapting to fasting - and much less for very intense HIIIT
e.g. 60 mins pump / spin / taebo class etc or 20 mins sprint intervals outside or very short rope-skipping intervals

5:2ers often report being "smaller" at a particular weight than when they were at the same weight previously

This is because intermittent fasting, without increasing exercise, can sometimes actually increase the % muscle while reducing % bodyfat
Hence the scales may sometimes not change much for a while, even though you are getting leaner and changing shape

Some bodybuilders and weightlifters deliberately train fasted, to boost muscle build and performance

Thanks so much. I did a slow jog with the dogs first thing for 45 mins and I think you are right - that tipped the balance.

So maybe FD I do brisk walking, yoga and weights? I do a HIIT class on Tuesdays so maybe that might be ok on a FD too. I really hope I learn to adjust.

I have decided that I am a sugar addict. I had a great day on Saturday until I had a small piece of pie. Same on Sunday. Once I start I can’t stop. Need to quit sugar.
On a more positive note, just had a bowl of soup and dinner this pm. That’s all for today as I feel rotten after the weekend.

Glasgow, I’m a huge fan of HIIT on a FD - for various reasons I tend to get to the gym early evening before I eat and I’ve found that it can absolutely annihilate my appetite! I frequently get home around 8.30pm after not eating all day but don’t feel particularly hungry as
I’m completely pumped up after a good class! As BCF said, it’s important not to overdo things when fasting....I tried to do pump followed by boxercise (1 hour followed by 45 mins) a few weeks back and had to stop halfway through the second class because my legs were shaking so much My trainer is still teasing me....

Hummus - that’s great. Enjoy Evil Jill. Are you on level 3 yet?

Emcla, same here. I’m working on trying to reach for water or herbal tea, or an apple if really hungry, when those sugar cravings hit. But it’s really hard! I’m at a conference today and have ducked biscuits and pastries but did end up having a couple of petit fours chocs after lunch...:

Good FD yesterday although dinner was almost certainly over 500 cals; even so scales were 9.8.8 this morning which was a good way to start the week. Conference lunch and posh dinner will do some damage (I may have eaten a bread roll too...) - currently planning my next FD on Wednesday but may do an extra one tomorrow in an effort to avoid team off site temptation!

Good luck to all the Monday fasters

Hi filly. I’m going to try to keep skipping breakfast as I feel that wakes up my stomach and I crave lunch earlier than normal. I usually have soup for lunch and then dinner. I often have an apple or orange after dinner but find that even that makes me crave more fruit. I’m going to stick with the water too. I really like warm water especially this time of year.