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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
bwydda · 18/09/2019 22:13

Big choc- I usually eat 600 under tdee on three days and the 500 over (Friday and Saturday ) on two. I'm assuming as this still equates to a daily average of under 1400 and allows for the health benefits of fasting, that'll still work right? Ps- I never ever snack, however , honestly, I do drink over the recommended nhs guidelines.

(I also exercise regularly and never eat the cals back- my tdee is set at sedentary and I really think my thrice weekly gym/ classes plus plumbing negates that)

VanGoghsDog · 18/09/2019 22:54

I never drink "enough" water, in that most days I drink practically none. I drink lots out walking but not normal days.
Most days I have two cups of green tea and one normal tea and that's my liquid intake.
A couple of days I might have a glass of wine.

I never usually get a FD headache so I assumed it was due to the b2b, and funnily enough I had three glasses of water yesterday as I was trying to ensure I wasn't too hungry.

Anyway, I don't mind Marmite.

No headache when I woke up.

Dp made me a bacon sarnie, Marmite on toast, green tea and a bowl of muesli for breakfast! And a cheese and hummus sarnie to take to work for lunch (client took me out for lunch, had salmon and spinach, so had the sarnie for tea - too much bread overall today).

SoSydney · 19/09/2019 06:50

Hi all
Finally found you all again
I logged out somehow and couldn’t find the thread again Confused

Back is slowly getting better and haven’t gained any weight which I’m pleased about
Fasting today and i’m getting back to working out so hoping FD’s and weight loss will resume

43 definitely go to the docs, I was finally diagnosed with peri from the age of 44 but the symptoms started around 40 they kept saying I was to young but I kept going as the exhaustion was killing me.
Eventually got HRT and feel much better.
Hope you get sorted soon

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/09/2019 07:16

Welcome back Sydney and thanks for that, I think I will make a gp appointment, glad HRT is working for you and good to hear your back is better.

Wow van what a lovely breakfast Smile

bwydda I do similar to you and 'bank' calories mostly for wine at the weekend Blush I also exceed NHS limits so I'd be interested in bcf advice.

onko · 19/09/2019 08:03

Checking in for a FD. Anyone else fasting?
Successful mini on Tuesday (damage limitation as I go on holiday on Saturday).

OohMrDarcy · 19/09/2019 09:52

NFD here, last bit of socialising with the family later before my parents head back to spain then I won't see them until next year.

well done on yesterdays FD 43.

bwydda - sounds like you have a good plan going on, how much over the guidelines do you think you drink? I'd look to cut it a little if you can... wouldn't worry too much though given the rest.

Vangogh - 3 drinks a day sounds way too low to me. If you can, I'd try and focus on slowly increasing it a bit - even upping it to 4 will be good for you with that low an intake I would think. Well done on the 3 glasses of water yesteday though! Sounds like the marmite is the answer for you on the headache.

Well done finding us sydney Grin glad to hear the back is improving and no gain, brilliant news!

Good luck for your FD onko!

BloggersBlog · 19/09/2019 09:54

Yes a FD here too @onko. My plan is 300mls of skimmed milk for coffees (105 cals) strir fry (250) and a bowl of fruit to graze on tonight. Am on week 2 of C25K but not sure if Im being daft dong a run today and fasting.
Does anyone exercise on FDs or is it best to conserve energy Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 11:21

Good luck today, sydney, onko, bloggers and any other Thursday fasters

Welcome back, sydney
You've done really well to sts with your back problems hindering normal exercise
Good to hear that it's getting better, however slowly.

Are you able to cycle, or do spin class - if you take it gently, that's usually OK unless your back has totally seized up

bloggersMost regular exercisers can train on FDs too, but if you are new to running,-see how you go

Long steady state cardio sessions, such as long runs or swims are not a good idea for most fasters,
because that kind of exercise draws more from your glycogen stores for energy, which FDs would empty
Hence you could feel shattered on the FD and / or on the following NFD

However, iirc a c25k doesn't have anything longer than about 45 minutes, which would be fine for most fasters

Obvious move if you find it difficult is to make the 2 FDs your training rest days
and / or cross-training days - I recommend a weekly weights / strength day for runners

btw, your main meal sounds fine, but fruit on its own raises insulin, which could make you hungrier
You'd probably feel fuller with some protein & fat, e.g. boiled egg & tomato, or veg sticks with a tbsp hummus
Anyway, see how you feel and tweak as need be for the next FD

bwydda Your 5 NFDs average well under TDEE, so that probably boosts weight loss a bit in addition to the FDs

However, if you feel hungry on NFDs - except in the hour before meals - then do feel free to increase cals a bit on your 3 "low" NFDs, to average your full TDEE
(Mosely says calculate with one exercise level below what you think)

So long as NFDs average out as "maintenance days", you should still lose well

Super breakfast, VanGogh Your DP is a star, especially making you a packup too.

Really important though: Drink lots of water - every day

..... both for general health & for weight loss
Essential processes in your body need water and so does efficient fat-burning - some folk have found that boosting water can alone speed up fat loss noticeably

Try to develop the longterm habit of at least 1.5 litre water, including in tea
Start each day with a full glass & say a slice of lemon, then keep water with you all day and drink, drink, drink.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 11:38

Enjoy your family time, MrD
Sounds like you all have a lovely relationship

Yep, 43 I do recommend the NHS guidelines on alcohol - Mosely does - hence the "5:2 healthy guidelines for NFDs"
This is my take, from reading the research:

You almost certainly won't drop dead if you exceed the limits, but longterm following the advice lowers the risks of liver and other health problems
As with smoking, a few folk will live to their 90s with bad habits, but statistically they are not typical of the population

Smoking and excess alcohol are aging, which also shows up later in the face

Alcohol and also added sugar are the 2 kinds of calories that most hinder fat loss:
both store their calories preferentially as viscous fat (around the internal organs) and around the mid-section, which is the worst place for health & shape

Alcohol stops fat-burning until your liver has processed the toxic byproducts, which may be several hours if you have had a lot to drink in one go.
Drinking a lot of alcohol in the evening reduces or even stops the overnight fast, which is so important for weight loss and for maintenance later.

So, try to spread out your alcohol and enjoy a glass or so on say 4 NFDs, rather than a binge on nights out

OP posts:
IceniSky · 19/09/2019 17:49

Bad FD today. Some cough sweets, milk in coffee and jacket potatoes with quorn and bean chilli. Think fair bit over 500cal.

Also seem to have hit a wall and not losing more than half a pound ish if that a week.

BloggersBlog · 19/09/2019 18:09

Kitchen closed for me!
Small stir fry (120 I reckon)
300 mls skimmed milk (105)
Plum and small nectarine (80?)
M and S meal for 1 plus broccoli (220)
Bit over but heyho
Plus Day 3 of week 2 c25k done

Roll on tomorrow...

OohMrDarcy · 19/09/2019 19:25

Reasonable NFD here I think, not quite as good as yesterday though.

Had a small lunch so I could enjoy the family dinner, but then ended up with a slice of amazing cheesecake after (which I hadn't known about) no idea on cals in total for the day but will be above goal TDEE, might have snuck in under current but I suspect a tad over.

Bring on tomorrows FD!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 20:01

Well done on your FD, bloggers

Iceni You stuck to it, so I'd count that as a decent go
You are probably under 800 cals ? If so, you've nailed it well enough.

If your loss has slowed right down, that is probably because of your NFDs

  • many folk can lose the first bit of weight despite their NFDs being way over TDEE However, to proceed at a good pace, they then need to retrain their "Normal" eating on NFDs

Do you think your NFDs are over ?
If you have a fairly low TDEE and / or are a "hard loser", then averaging just an extra 200 cals each NFD / 1000 per week can really slow things down
especially if you are finding the FDs tough to nail.

MrD That cheesecake was a special treat for a special family occasion - 5:2 allows for that, as part of normal life

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 21:05

Heck, enjoy your cheesecake a couple of times a week

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 20/09/2019 07:13

Morning all,

Checking in ready to nail my Friday FD!

Who is with me?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2019 07:18

Morning, MrD Me too
Good luck to us both

Off for a cycle outside now, then to abs & back class at the gym
Are you Shredding ?

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 20/09/2019 07:47

Friday fd here too. Good luck mrd and bcf

BloggersBlog · 20/09/2019 08:55

Hope your FDs go well!
Weighed myself today, 3lbs lost in 2 weeks, really pleased with that. I'm gradually training myself not to overeat on my NFDs after years of 'cheat days' so am slowly getting there.
Thanks for the support and advice on this thread, is so helpful! Haven't thought of this WOE before but am hoping it carries on working Grin

OohMrDarcy · 20/09/2019 09:13

Haven't been able to shred all week, finding it really hard to fit in alongside real life at the moment - however I should be able to this evening, back to level 1 though I suspect Grin

Well done on the SV blogger!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/09/2019 09:24

I'm with you too mrd

well done on your SV blogger that's great :)

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2019 10:17

Well done on your SV, bloggers
and on your retraining NSV
Developing new permanent habits is the key to successful lifelong maintenance after you reachgoal

Good luck to you as well, 43

OP posts:
BloggersBlog · 20/09/2019 10:28

Thank you everyone for your cheering from the sides! Really helps. Hope you all have a great day Smile

OohMrDarcy · 20/09/2019 15:45

Kitchen closed on 439 here... got plenty of water and will have another cuppa later then I'm done. Will have an early night too I think

How is FD going bigchoc, aber and 43?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/09/2019 17:43

Well done mrd

I'm struggling a bit, already on 458 but super hungry, I might have to make it a 700cal fd today. The urge to sack it all in and pour a glass of wine is strong Sad but hopefully I can stay on course.... send positive thoughts Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2019 17:52

Well done, mrD

Stay strong, 43 and away from the booze
700 reasonably healthy calories is fine for an FD

Not long to go, then have an early night and wake up full of energy for the weekend
You can do this 🤛🏼

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