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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 21/09/2019 18:51

CVD = cardiovascular disease
e.g. heart attacks, strokes

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/09/2019 18:52

and less dramatic but still serious disease such as clogged arteries, high BP

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 11:46

Are you having another Sunday FD, Hummus ?

Lovely sunny weekend here on the Rhine, 24C is perfect temp Smile
I'm sitting in my fav Rhine cafe, looking out at the boats and the trees, totally blue sky
just about to have my brunch - I did spin class and then 30 mins free weights

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 22/09/2019 11:58

It will be Monday and Tuesday this week bigchoc - there is a neighbourhood street party here today and I am judging a baking contest, so not a good day for a FD Grin. I am going to try replicate the approach of the judges on Bake Off and have just a little taste of each thing, otherwise the scales will go haywire tomorrow. (I asked to help with the music for the day but I think they saw me coming!)

That sounds like a lovely brunch, and beautiful weather. It is quite overcast here in London today but I went out for a walk and some fresh air earlier, so I am feeling very energised.

Hope everyone else is having a good weekend.

AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 12:47

Re the baking competition

I do hate how so many social things are based round food

What’s wrong with a nice cuppa? Grin

EssentialHummus · 22/09/2019 13:16

Totally autumn - I only noticed once on this WOE that so many things are food centred, and how excluded one can feel if not partaking. Though that's one of the main benefits of 5:2 for me - it's flexible enough to shift things around and stay on track instead of getting frustrated and sliding back into old habits when special occasions crop up.

Other entertainment today includes a wonky veg competition from the local allotmenteers, and morris dancing - sometimes I forget that I am in the guts of London here!

AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 13:26

Ah, veg comps
Villanelle Grin

www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2019/07/22/kaleing-eve-jodie-comer-vegetable-carving-admired-at-lambeth-country-show/

I actually have been driven mad by food culture for years. In my 20s, I was a gym bunny and viewed it as fuel. I used to get “too skinny” comments though I’d love to get back to that!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 14:17

hummus I totally agree that what makes 5:2 longterm sustainable is being able to eat normally on 5 days per week, to fit in a special occasion when it happens

I hate any WOE that requires me to abstain forever from food I adore - and it can be very socially isolating

About 20 years ago, I did low carb for 3 years, but I hated every day and I drifted permanently away from all friends and acquaintance
I found when I stopped that I don't seem sensitive to carbs anyway - for me, weight depends on calorie intake - so it was wasted time & stress.

I know it works for some longterm, but for most folk lc is something that is only practical for a couple of months, before they need to move on to something else, or crash out

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 14:58

OP how did you manage that for 3 years?

i've had many well meaning people suggest it but frankly i'd rather stay fat - and my digestive system can't cope with it anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 16:07

Autumn I am pretty disciplined, so I can stick to things
I didn't lose weight after the first 3 weeks or so, just maintained slightly higher than goal

I stopped after I was getting massive fat cravings, consuming far too much and actually putting on a bit of weight
I tried both decreasing carbs and increasing them - veg, legumes & flaxmeal, not starches
I felt vaguely hungry all the time at that stage
I felt a bit unwell and it took a few weeks of normal eating to recover my full energy.

I decided an lc WOE was not suitable for me;
probably I can't cope well with all the fat.
Also, I was starting meno and I've read that women can find lc no longer works then, because the fat is handled differently.

lc works well for those who are pre-T2 / T2, e.g. in Mosely's Fast800 - but that is also a VLCD, hence probably little more fat consumed compared to a normal diet
However, I've never had problems with insulin metabolism - none shown in tests, anyway - so I'm probably the wrong demographic for lc.

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 18:24

OP, like Bernard Black, i am a quitter! unlike BB, i can't claim to come from a long line of quitters, my parents had no trouble at all with weight.

i didn't know i could get tested for insulin resistance though my blood sugar and blood pressure are on the low side.

Whattodowithaminute · 22/09/2019 18:55

Have realised DH is out tomorrow
Night so tomorrow should be my first FD... started planning meals for the day.
Today haven’t snacked but realised how much over daily calories (approx 500) I am on a normal day (hmmm...wonder how I got to this overweight place?!!)

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 19:30

WhatToDo Well done on the No snacking NSV

You've gained a useful insight into your "normal" eating & weight gain

  • like many folk who've struggled with weight for a while, you need to use the NFDs to retrain your normal and develop new habits Permanent ones, so you you only have to lose this weight once

Good luck tomorrow on your 1st FD and well done for planning your menu in advance - that makes the FD much more doable.

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 21:10

Trouble at mill

or...I'm hungry. Sad

AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 21:12

OP " hated every day and I drifted permanently away from all friends and acquaintance"

do you mind if i ask how/why that happened and how it linked to diet? I have lots of friends on low carb.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 21:22

It was because low carb wasn't a thing back about 2000, at least not among my social circle

You're hungry - is it an FD or NFD ?
If NFD, have you had proper meals today ?

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 22:27

Wasn't it a thing...Atkins was around ages ago I thought.

Fast Day. I tipped myself into hunger by doing a harder workout than I should have perhaps. I'm having a camomile tea now!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 22:33

Yes, Atkins was around back in 2000 (and much earlier too) but very few people low carbed then, compared to now, when it is pretty mainstream
It was thought very odd, even at my gym

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 22:35

Clean your teeth - it helps - and then an early night
You might wake up tomorrow not very hungry at first - that means you burned more bodyfat as fuel

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 22/09/2019 22:44

I hope I'm not hungry when I wake up then Grin

Thanks for the support everyone!

EssentialHummus · 23/09/2019 07:23

Morning all, checking in for day 1 of a b2b here with no menu plan whatsoever - whoops. A quick walk to the shops is in order I think, for salad ingredients or a soup.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/09/2019 09:02

morning all and welcome autumn
How was the baking context essential were you more of a prue or paul in your critique Grin

NFD today, FD planned for weds and fri this week.

Have a rare night out with DH on saturday so we are off to a lovely bistro for a meal and some fizz so being super good and planning to 'save' some calories so that I can fully enjoy our night together

Good luck to the Monday fasting gang

OohMrDarcy · 23/09/2019 09:09

Morning all

NFD here today - Fasting tomorrow and Friday this week.

Got the delights of builders in this week as getting a new bathroom done. Going to make drinking plenty of water fun so I suspect I'll be working from costa or waitrose a lot just so I can use the loo Grin

Welcome Autumn

BigChocFrenzy · 23/09/2019 09:20

Morning and a very rainy day here after the lovely sunny WE
< squelches onto thread >

Good luck on your b2b, Hummus

Well done on nailing your 1st FD, AutumnRose

That's good planning for your meal out, 43
Have a great time

Eek, builders
Just visualise the lovely new bathroom, MrD
Working elsewhere with a working loo is a sensible plan this week Smile

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 23/09/2019 09:31

43 the contestants were all so young (like Bake Off I suppose Grin) that I just concentrated on finding something positive to say about each thing and not thinking too much about the baking process. It was lots of fun really, even when we got a bit rained on.

Your meal out sounds like a lovely thing to look forward to - as does your bathroom mrd!