5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

And now the correct way up...

Well done on your FD, MrD and that tough shred

I hope you resisted the ice cream party, aber

Thanks for the recipe, filly
A nice lot of veg & spices there

Made it!! Resisted all the work treats, but dinner was larger than usual, so finished in ~650. I’ve been ravenous all day and coming down with a cold, so I’ll take that! Very early night for me, and looking forward to a bacon bap and a latte for breakfast.

Well done on your shred mrd

filly that recipe looks delicious!

bcf that was one of our more extreme snack days, but we’re basically an office full of feeders. There is one week in May where 4 colleagues and my 2 dds have birthdays. There is a lot of cake that week...

Well done, aber
Fab resistance to poo crumbs !
I hope your cold gets better soon - Give yourself some TLC this weekend

Aber you deserve all the kids for avoiding all that. Its what my last work looked like most of the time and was exhausting!

Just weighed in st 14st 6.6lb which is a 0.8lb loss and takes my total to 3st 5.8lb
Creeping ever in the right direction! Would have preferred a bit better loss this week but I know it will come.

I also know that my fitness is improving massively this week and my muscles have started to remember what they are for

Hope everyone else weighing in has a good result!

Kids are with their dad this weekend. NFD for me and plenty of jobs to do

Well done everyone. I was going to do a Fd today but a weekend is probably too ambitious with kids at home. Easier on a week day!

Thanks bcf and well done mrd!

I weighed in at 151.4 lb this morning, so I’m now just over 1 stone down from my 166.8 lb starting point Aiming for sub-133.

+aberjenagain* wow how long has it taken you to lose a stone?

bloggersblog exactly 2 months. I’m bracing myself for things to slow down a fair bit when I reach about 147, as that’s been a sticking point for me in the past.

Congratulations on your SV, aber
and the stone milestone
That's a good rate of loss

Around 147 lb, you may plateau - which by definition is 3+weeks sts
That is probably your "set point": the weight you were for years and from which your body resists going lower

However, if you stay patient and focus on your WOE, you will indeed break through and go lower

Well done too on your SV, MrD
Fab progress with your fitness; that'll help tighten everything up, too

I'm fasting today
Anyone else ?

Weigh in day for me - 158.2 - so that’s two pounds down this week :)

That’s with three fast days - so much harder than when I had more to lose! NFD today & another fast tomorrow.

Healthy weight goal is 135 which feels achievable - I’m much happier at 125 but I think that’ll be a goal for next year!

I'm struggling on NFD. I feel like I can't eat anything. Never done a diet like this! I'm only up to 450 and it's a nfd.

Well done on losses. I hope I get some loss soon

aberjenagain thanks for the reply. That is amazing, a stone in 2 months!!

I've just started this way of eating, I'm ok with 500 cals on FDs worried that my out of control eating will take over on NFDs and ruin it all how do you all control what you eat and not go overboard on NFDs,?

Well that's why I'm being so restrictive. It seems all or nothing with me!

The idea on NFDs is to eat "normally"
If your "normal" is skewed, then use the NFDs to retrain habits permanently

The 5:2 healthy habits I posted upthread are a good guide

The No snacking / grazing between meals is especially important if you are out of control on NFDs

Note as in the OP:
if you have an ED, then you should NOT do any kind of fasting diet

If you have no ED, but are just a bit greedy - like most of us ! - then what do you binge on and when ?

• If it is cake, biscuits, crisps and other carby crap, then I recommend you 2:5 it,
  i.e. have only 1 portion of junk (NOT 1 portion of each kind !) on 2 NFDs per week
  or ease in with one portion every other day.

• If you like takeaways, pizza, fast food etc, then have this once a week only, as a treat
  mfp this, because some choices can be over 2,000 cals in just one meal !

• Boost veg and water, so you fill up on healthy lower cal food
  Aim for at least 5 portions veg - more is great ! - and have 1-2 portions fruit, but Mosely recommends limiting fruit to 2 portions daily

• You can optionally use mfp on NFDs too.
  If you calculate in advance how much each item is, then you can judge if those 500, 600, ... 2000 cals fit into your NFD plan

As with any diet, don't look on it as something you have to tolerate until you reach goal and then you can go wild
==> That's when "diets don't work"

Your old WOE put on weight, so don't return to that
That WOE may have been OK when you were a teen or in your 20s etc, but it no longer works for you

FDs are "diet days" and NFDs are "maintenance days", so part of 5:2 is using the NFDs to retrain your "normal" to become maintenance

Congratulations on your SV, lania
You are on your way to your healthy weight goal

Many 5:2ers find they can comfortably go further, once they get to their original goal, so see how you feel

2lb in a week with 3 FDs is a decent rate when you haven't too much to lose
Those who lose 3-4 lb weekly are starting off with much higher BMIs

If you find 3 FDs are a strain, then maybe 2 FDs would be more sustainable, so lose in a more relaxed way ?

Anyone fasting today with me?

Good luck tutti- I couldn't fast on weekends and admire your grit in doing so.

I'm currently planning tomorrows fast and making this chicken vermicelli soup
https://www.splendidtable.org/recipes/chicken-turmeric-vermicelli-soup

I've mfp the recipe and to serve 4 it's only 222 cals (148 if serving 6!) so I thought I'd share it here.

Morning all

Thursday’s FD wasn’t a perfect example (cake featured....ahem) but I still closed out around 600 and it was a b2b with about 500 on the first day, which means I did 3 this week. I seem to be stuck around the 10st mark again. Grrrrr

On the other hand, there’s definitely a whole load of muscle gain (my arms and legs are looking noticeably different, even though my middle still has no definition) so I’m trying (failing) not to get too worked up about the slow rate of loss and reminding myself that muscle weighs more than fat. Ideally I’ll get to 9.9 and have muscles but I can see it may take a little longer. I’ve got until February 2020 (in a perfect world I’ll get to 9.7 by then) before we have a really big family event that I want to look my best for, so need to remain focussed for the long haul.

Well done Onko on a successful 2 FDs! Now that you’ve nailed it this time, it will get easier to get back into the groove

Congrats Bwydda on your loss! Sounds like you are really getting into your stride now. Soup looks delicious, thanks for sharing. Thank you for telling me about the recipe option on MFP - it’s fab, especially being able to scan bar codes!! I made an enormous batch of minestrone last night (16 portions) and MFP tells me that it’s only 76 cals per portion, which is quite a shock. I usually serve it with tons of Parmesan and garlic bread but now I know it makes an excellent FD meal (albeit without those...!)

So glad you’re enjoying the shred again MrD. I prefer level 2, but what I’ve noticed is that there’s usually just one exercise in each level that I really struggle with. Keep on pushing through! Isn’t it amazing how quickly you can see improvements? I did my boxing class again on Thursday night and although I was collapsing by the end (especially as he hit us with 5 minutes of hardcore abs work on the mats after 40 minutes of solid jabbing and jumping...thought I was going to die!!!!) I realised that I wasn’t finding it quite as tough as just a few week ago.

Aber, well done on sticking to your guns - I don’t think I could have managed to resist the gelato! My office is like that too, and I’m slowly getting better at ignoring the food piles. Love the poo crumbs quote BCF! My courgettes have finally taken off (actually they’ve taken over...) so I’m thinking about making a stuffed courgette type thing one night for dinner this week. Does anyone have any recipes to recommend? And well done on your losses! I’ve still only lost 4lbs (there were another 4 but they seem to have gone back on...), but I’ve only got 4-7lbs to lose in total and I know from experience that it’s going to take a while to get my body to adjust downwards. Just need to avoid any gains and improve my eating and fitness habits and hope that eventually the loss will follow...

Skye, Blogger, Pekka, Yumyum - welcome!

Good luck to the Sunday fasters

Filly - this herby rice stuffed courgette recipe is lovely. I made it recently, abut before I started using mfp so haven't counted the calories.

www.saga.co.uk/magazine/food/recipes/vegetables/courgettes-stuffed-with-herbed-rice

A meat version here is cal counted as 398

www.thekitchn.com/recipe-zucchini-stuffed-with-s-157175

Which would work with bigger courgettes (bordering on marrow really)

43 shared a great stuffed courgette recipe a few pages back filly: halve a courgette lengthways; scoop out the insides and chop them up; fry off the insides with some shallots/onions and garlic; stir through some red pesto; put the mixture back inside the halved courgettes; sprinkle on some Parmesan; grill or bake until golden (I baked at 200 for about 20 mins so the courgette outers cooked enough for my tastes). Am thinking of adding some cannellini beans to the mix next time, to bulk it out just a little more.

So this is my weight ‘journey’ over the last 4 years. Excellent loss after first attempting 5:2, got within about 4 lb of goal, went back to work and 6 weeks later my weight started creeping back up again until I ended up back where I started

So this time, after several false starts, I have managed to restart when my head is in the right place, and during a relatively work stress-free period, so that I can hopefully get the healthy habits well and truly established before any of my usual triggers put in an appearance. I need to get to a place mentally where I don’t comfort eat at work when it is stressful, which as you can see is not easy, esp as my desk is just round the corner from the kitchen!