5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Saying hi - I've fasted on and off for a few years, I have 3kg to lose to not be 'overweight', but it would be nice to get below that - am 73kg and need to be c70kg for healthy BMI.

I tend to fast Mon/Wed or Tue/Thu, depending on life. Do very little exercise, sedentary job.

I've found that I can go to 4pm without eating and then I have a few cherry tomatoes. Then as late as I can make it, usually 7ish, I have a tuna salad or chicken salad, a banana and a small chocolate biscuit. And bed.

I always forget to drink water, as I don't drink much any days really. I have two cups of green tea.

I try to get an early night but it rarely works as I am a night owl at heart.

Hi all.
Good luck to everyone starting.

Good to know eggs are ok. It really makes a difference as fills me up.
Yesterday kids had chippy tea and I didnt even eat one..shocking for me!
NFD today and started the day with a cuppa.

Morning all

Sky eggs are fine, and in fact a great idea for FD, with the cals it's fine if you weren't hungry, I was just pointing out if you were struggling you could have more.

Welcome Pekka and vangogh

Friday FD here and feeling good, it's cold this morning - autumn is definitely on it's way! Always a good sign for me as get to eat more of my favourite meals!

Sky good luck with the NFD, sometimes they can be the hardest to nail when you get started. So just aim for plenty of water and no snacking if you find it hard.

Signing in for a FD

NFD today - it’s the toddler’s birthday party tomorrow, so it’s a “don’t eat out of stress while running around organising” day for me. Luckily trying to mass-produce hundreds of tiny cheese and jam sandwiches is likely to put me off my food .

I'm going for a FD today. Have had a cup of tea - is that allowed 🙈😬.... and now staying strong for the rest of the day despite the terrible tummy rumbling that is going on already 🙈

Should I record food info on mfp or Fitbit?

Friday FD here, and this is the office kitchen

Good luck pekka Tea is fine, just count the calories in the milk as part of your 500 ‘allowance’. I use mfp for tracking cals

aberjen if you could scoop that all up and drop it round here, it would save me a lot of catering prep . I used to work in an office like that, it can be tricky.

Good luck!

Have have tea on fast day but yes I count the milk calories.

So this is my first week and I keep restricting food even on a NFD I am worry about eating when hungry. Not sure the best way forward. I only had a yoghurt for brekfast, can I have carbs for lunch. I'm worried about undoing all the work from my fast day!

skye Nothing is off limits for nfds, but the idea is to build up healthy habits that you can continue once you no longer need to lose weight - the first post on the first page gives details, but essentially, the keys are:
No snacking between meals
Healthy alcohol consumption (within nhs limits, no binge drinking)
Treats are allowed but should be treats not for daily consumption - a useful rough guide is to limit treat food to one portion, max 2 days a week

Calories for nfds vary wildly person to person depending on current weight, height, age and activity levels. Eg I am late 30s, sedentary, and short, so my ‘normal’ calorie requirement is only about 1600 cals. For this reason, I mfp everything, to make sure I don’t undo my fds. But not everyone does this. You can also calorie count just for the first few weeks or months to ‘reset’ your concept of portion size etc, if you don’t want to be stuck calorie counting all the time.

There is a link on the first page so you can calculate what your nfd intake should be (this is your tdee - total daily energy expenditure)

Hope this helps a bit!

Also, generally good to have a filling, protein-y breakfast the day after a fd to help fill you up and keep you going

Well done on your FDs, onko, Skye

Skye Eggs are an excellent choice on FDs, or NFDs for that matter:
top quality protein with nutrients that are especially good for your eyes

What is "banned" on FDs: alcohol, all junk food - cake, sweets, crisps etc

Don't beat yourself up about your starting weight:
you've taken the first steps to get to where you want to be.

Lania Don't weigh at the end of the day:
weight varies during the day (and from day to day) and tends to be a couple of lb higher in the evening

I recommend you weigh under consistent conditions:

. the morning after FD2, every week or 2 weeks
. 1st thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. and weigh yourself naked
. use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. Switch on the scales and count slowly to 3, so they have time to calibrate, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

Good luck, filly, lania, pekka, MrD, aber and any other Friday fasters

Fab exercise, MrD

If anyone prefers to monitor NFDs for a while, to retrain habits:
Here is Mosely's TDEE Calc
He says that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think

Welcome, Pekka 🙂

On all diets, people tend to find it more difficult the 2nd or later time round, after they have regained weight:

• Increased insulin resistance: this tends to happens both with age and with the total number of years in your llfe that you have been overweight

• the higher weight becomes a "set point"

• Peri-meno or meno is an additional factor for women, if you are of that age

• You may have v gradually - and without realising - increased portion size and / or the number & size of snacks, treats, takeaways etc
  All due to ever-increasing commercal pressure & availability

• psychological reasons:
  many people increase the amount / frequency of rule-bending,
  because of frustration at having to diet yet again and because they got away with rule-bending before without much cost.

Welcome VanGoph 🙂
You sound like you have developed a fasting system that suits you

Many folk start 5.2 with a modest goal and then when they near that, realise they can comfortably progress further.

However, do drink LOTS of water especially on FDs - you are getting less water from the reduced amount of food -
but also on NFDs too

Your body needs plenty of water for really efficient fat-burning
Sometimes, just boosting water can help zap more fat.

Start each day with a glass of water and keep water with you all day, so you can keep drinking
Develop that into a permanent habit

Fizzy crap, including the diet kind, is nowwhere near as good

• and Mosely's latest books include peer-reviewed research showing that sweeteners longterm change the gut flora, which can cause weight gain

Hi do you mind if I ask some advice I am not sure where to post but I know I do best at this kind of thing when I am on one of the support threads.

I have popped on here before a couple of times but I don't seem to do that well on the 5:2 pattern despite being really interested in the science behind it. When I first tried it I was on here for 8 months and found going from high to low cals made me feel sick and I didn't lose much. I did however get a couple of stubborn lbs off with 5:2 when I was nearing BSD loss goal a few years ago and eating really much more healthily . I previously lost several stone on BSD - however I regained all the weight. Part of me wants to do BSD again but as I regained it's probably not wise to do that again just yet? Obviously it's not the diet to blame but I seem unable to eat healthily when not dieting. I have no deadlines or immediate events that I want to lose weight for at the moment - it is just health but also a bit of vanity and on a practical/ money saving level not wanting to buy more clothes in bigger sizes.

So my plan is 3 sensible meals a day with a 10:14 eating window approx. 1600 cals (in theory I should lose 0.5 lbs a week), in addition 1 day (prob Monday) at 800 cals as a fast day. I might hang my head in shame and post on the BSD thread too...

Thanks to anyone who has read all my waffle

How right you are BigChoc - I was 158 this morning (after a NFD)!

Hi yumyum
That sounds a reasonable plan to try, basically a relaxed 6:1

Additionally, I recommend following a definite guide for "sensible" eating
our 5:2 healthy (NFD) habits, even at weekends:

• NEVER snack / graze between meals < really important >
• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on fizzy crap drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine, e.g. with fruit slices & ice)

That's excellent news, lania

aber Your office junk table .... !
Chant (under your breath) handy 5:2 mantra:

"Communal food has poo crumbs & snot smears !" 💩 😂

Thanks Big choc! I am fine with fizzy drinks and alcohol luckily (although the hot summer really ramped up my consumption of gin and tonic clinking with ice cubes! ). Everything else on that list I need to work on though. My fitness pal reset up and ready to go … fingers crossed I can get back on track.

might need to employ the communal food mantra at my work too (not envy)

Everyone’s now going to the gelato van that is permanently outside our office(!!!) for a celebratory/commiseratory gelato for a colleague who is leaving. Worst fd ever 😭😭😭

Although, if I can survive this fd unscathed then, frankly, I can survive anything

Kitchen closed on 439. Had my grilled halloumi and salad followed by 2 easy peelers.

Going to have a cuppa later plus plenty more water and that will be me done

Well....

Shred day 6 was HARD! Assume it's a combo of end of week tiredness plus FD ... but I got it done. Feeling good now its finished

Proper post coming at some point (sorry) but in the meantime here’s the Ottlolenghi runner bean & tomato recipe I mentioned last week - hope you can read it!