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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 13:43

This is the classic photo showing a woman who burned fat, gained muscle
on a healthy diet & exercise program

She is much leaner & fitter while actually gaining weight

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !
OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 31/08/2019 15:19

bwydda it won't hurt as a one off and it sounds like your sister needed you more.... onko makes a very good point about being able to get back on it after an unplanned day...

Don't worry mrd I'm not gonna give in. I think I probably eat very little fibre as I tend to be mostly low carb, hardly any fruit except some berries and grapes, so maybe I'll try upping my intake and see if that gets things moving

I think you are right bcf and I am definitely smaller even if the scales won't sodding budge Shock and the piece of string thing (so half my height around my waist) is still bob on, I just need to focus less on the scales. Maybe I should weigh in just once a month instead of weekly?

Chicken casserole planned for tea, dh and ds will have potatoes with it, I'll have extra veg so that I can relax later with a glass or two of lovely shiraz Wine Wine happy Saturday everyone Smile

onko · 31/08/2019 16:11

The after version has a higher TDEE...Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 17:50

You've probably got an inches NSV, 43

Some low carbers find when they increase their carbs - with healthy low impact carbs, not junk - then they start to lose weight again
That may be partly because of increased fibre

I'd definitely recommend adding some fibre, which will help you poo more regluarly and also help with blood sugar control
e.g. berries, apple with skin, flaxseed meal, oat bran, a slice of 100% rye or wholemeal bread
Mosely recommends peas, beans, lentils - especially on his low carb Fast800

Another low carb issue can often be alcohol - spirits and low carb wines still have calories, just fewer carbs and alcohol itself hinders fat-burning for hours if you have a few drinks
I recommend you keep to a one drink limit

OP posts:
Laniakea · 01/09/2019 09:05

Hello everyone I’m back Wink

I lost a chunk doing BSD through June & July then went back to 5:2 for August with the aim of maintaining ... while having lots more treat days, not calorie counting NFD & drinking when I wanted to. Somehow I ended up losing another 4lbs - the only rules I stuck to were two 500 cal fasts & absolutely no snacking. I think my relationship with food might actually be improving.

I’m back on proper IF now - going to do ADF while I’m feeling super motivated - first fast tomorrow.

I’m now - finally - out of obese! 25lbs to go until I’m within a healthy weight.

Sept 1st - 160.4lbs

bwydda · 01/09/2019 09:39

Thanks all. Yesterday was a controlled nfd and today will be too. I've lost an inch off my waist but no Sv as yet. I may change my weigh in day to coincide with the day after fd- I know long term it shouldn't matter as it's a marathon not a sprint- but just for my fragile ego. I'm 14st 10 and want to be 12st (well really 10 stone to be healthy but that seems so unachievable that I won't write it down)

SmileEachDay · 01/09/2019 10:01

Hi - I’m interested in trying IF to refocus myself on being healthier and looking after myself.

Can I ask: I’m a teacher, so I am on the go all the time at school. How do “fast days” fit with this? Am I going to come over all weak? 😁

Also: I’m trying to get into a routine of exercise after a period of sloth like ness - is it best to exercise on non fast days?

What DO I consume on fast days?

SmileEachDay · 01/09/2019 10:01

Thank you!!

bwydda · 01/09/2019 11:19

Smile- I'm very early days, but I have a very physical job (plumber) and don't find myself weak on fast days. In my opinion it's all about preparing (and as for what you eat- I eat soup for lunch (100 cals) and then a normal meal with the family later minus the carb element (chicken with roast veg/ salad etc, omelette/ etc)

BigChocFrenzy · 01/09/2019 16:12

Congratulations on your SV, lania
and on your fab BMI class milestone

Congratulations on your inches NSV, bwydda
That's more important than an SV
I recommend you monitor inches as well as scales, so you can see progress of both kinds.

Your goal looks very reasonable
Many 5:2ers who thought they could never reach goal have done so and some have found they can go beyond the initial goal towards their ideal weight.

Welcome, smile 🙂
Almost anyone should be fine fasting at work; teaching should be fine.
An FD often gives you more time during the day

I only recommend marathon runners not to do a 2hr training run on a FD !

Many fasters like to just have black coffee, no sugar, for breakfast and save most calories for supper,
or split between lunch & supper

Do not snack / graze, on FDs or NFDs

  • because that keeps insulin raised increases hunger and hinders fat-burning
Eat meals, nothing between, not even "healthy" snacks like fruit

Meals should be based on lots of veg, a decent amount of protein, optionally a small amount of starchy carbs at one meal.
Don't have fruit on its own, only as part of a meal.
Avoid fruit juice or dried fruit on FDs.
Obviously no junk or alcohol on FDs either

Important
keep a bottle of water with you all the time and keep drinking - aim for 1-1.5 litres water plus any other drinks
Water is much better than fizzy crap when fasting

I also recommend 1 level teasp Marmite mid-morning or lunchtime, to help avoid headaches or weakness
It replenishes salt & minerals which may be low when your body is adapting to fasting
It also boost B Vits
Even if you hate Marmite, it's the best help, so just glug that teasp down like medicine

Lots of tips and FD menu links in the OP under "How to fast"

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 01/09/2019 16:33

Thank you.

I ❤️ Marmite so that’s good news!!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/09/2019 18:19

That's handy Smile
Keep to 1 or 2 teasp per FD though, just neat from the jar

OP posts:
tuttifritti · 01/09/2019 20:30

Hi fasters. I've been on holiday since Tuesday and just trying to catch up on what I've missed.

Well done for your sister Bwydda. Definitely the right thing to do to be there for her.

43 I hope you have had some relief.

Big Choc, I liked your photo of the before and after muscle gain photo. I have my own photos where I weigh exactly the same but look relatively toned and lean in one photo and have an enormous tum in the other.

Welcome to all the new comers.

I have shut the kitchen on 473 calories today. We were away eating holiday food for the past few days but getting lots of steps in each day. I haven't weighed myself yet to see the damage so will see what I need to rectify tomorrow morning.

EssentialHummus · 01/09/2019 21:01

Hi all, very belated FD check in. We were travelling home today, so ate an omelette with coffee in the morning, then very little during the day and now a few rice cakes with hummus. Possibly going for a b2b tomorrow. Good luck to any Monday fasters!

OohMrDarcy · 01/09/2019 21:15

Evening all

Well done to the weekend fasters!

I've had a yummy roast today - and bought myself a new sports bra and did day 1 of the shred again! Couldn't find my hand weights so just used what I had but did it all other than that - tired muscles now Grin

Got a couple of days off work with the kids now before they go back to school and normality resumes, next FD is Tuesday

BigChocFrenzy · 01/09/2019 22:05

Well done on your FDs, tutti, Hummus

Enjoy your new sports bra, MrD
Sounds like you'll be getting a lot of use out of it Smile

OP posts:
onko · 02/09/2019 07:32

Morning all. FD today; feeling positive after a virtuous weekend with no booze and no sweet stuff and a 1m swim in a really good time.
A new sports bra is a wonderful thing - I need to do the same as a couple of mine aren’t cutting it anymore and I’m having to ‘steady the children’ on some of the bouncier shred moves.

IceniSky · 02/09/2019 10:12

My first FD after TOTM. So far losing about 1.5 pounds a week. My husband is double that!

Have an upset stomach however so I guess a FD will do it good. Have a short jog planned at lunch but not sure if I'll be able to. In the office tomorrow so I hope it goes away!

bwydda · 02/09/2019 11:51

I'm fasting today as well. I'm home so having twice roasted stuffed aubergine for lunch (130) , and then sticky grapefruit and chilli scallops (232) with cauliflower jollof (182) later. That comes in at 544 to finish the day which I'm happy with.

Fillybuster · 02/09/2019 12:15

Checking in for a much needed FD today. Scales up 4lbs ShockShockShock this morning but I can’t see it (normally I look super flabby at that point) so hoping it’s a combination of water retention (totm) and slightly too much for dinner last night. Annoying though that wipes out all of last week’s losses!

Will catch up on thread and post properly later on. Hope everyone is having a good Monday FD Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:25

Congratulations on your SV and progress, iceni

A male OH losing at double the rate is absolutely normal
Biology sucks

Well done on a very sensible WE, onko
You are forming the longterm "normal" habits that are necessary for permanent weight management

Do treat yourself to a new sports bra - your old ones are probably too loose if you've lost some bodyfat in your upper half

Good luck today, filly, bwydda, onko and any other Monday fasters
I'm fasting too
A gorgeous sunny day, bit very pleasant at 23 C

Off for another Rhine walk now, can't stay indoors long !

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 02/09/2019 14:05

Good luck today filly, bwydda, onko, bigChoc. Day 2 of b2b here, have had coffee and 350 cals of soup over two meals so far, so a light supper/salad in the works later. I weighed in this morning and have maintained despite two-ish very disjointed weeks, which I'm very happy with. Still the long trudge towards maintenance here, just over a kg to go.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:46

Well done on sts, hummus
and good luck on your b2b

So near to goal, but you can afford to relax about the time it takes

OP posts:
Laniakea · 02/09/2019 17:09

Another faster here - coffee, fast800 shake (revolting) & veg & eggs takes me to just under 500.

IceniSky · 02/09/2019 18:15

Kitchen closed on around 550. Run unsuccessful early this evening; 22 hours no food and several immodium later made me cut it short at 2.3 miles. Will keep runs to mornings on fast days.

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