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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Fillybuster · 29/08/2019 17:22

What’s taebo, BCF?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/08/2019 18:15

Thanks for that filly and bcf, I need to find something that agrees with my arthritic knee. I haven't ridden for a number of years sadly but I have toyed with starting up again. That reminds me is iamb still on these boards? I wonder how her shoulder is (it was iamb wasn't it?)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/08/2019 20:46

Zumba done. Just had a bowl of honey Greek yogurt and fruit. Comin in at 933 cals so happy with that. 3rd mini fd tomorrow, and I'm working from home so will aim to stay out of the kitchen 😮 who else is fasting tomorrow?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 22:48

Well done on the miniFD & Zumba, 43

WIth a dodgy knee I recommend a spinning class, because you can (optionally) sit down and exercise,
much less strain on the joint, but you can still burn a lot of calories

filly taebo is a high energy mix of taekwondo and boxing, no equipment, just air punching and kicks
Burns massive calories, boosts cardio fitness and works abs, legs, arms

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZrFfktgSI

You'd probably enjoy spin too

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 30/08/2019 08:16

Well done 43!

I closed out on 330 last night, not intentionally, but couldn’t think of what else I wanted to eat after the butternut squash tagine with a bit of pearl barley, so didn’t bother. Box fit was tough....I was a ridiculously sweaty puddle by the end Grin, and I forgot my marmite (again....). No cramps during class but awful ones in the night .

Taebo sounds really fun BCF, will keep an eye out!

On the plus side (“on the minus side”?) my hated bathroom scales said 9.12 this morning. Yay! Target 1 (9.9) in sight, although I suspect it will take a few weeks, and Target 2 (9.7) looking achievable by Feb. I know this could take a while...!

I really need to work on my FD menu options. The problem with going to the gym on the way home from work is that I don’t get home until around 8.30pm, having left the house at 7.30, still need to see the kids ad have a shower, so need something super easy and (critically) already cooked that I can defrost. Would welcome any more suggestions Flowers

Good luck to all the Friday fasters Smile

OohMrDarcy · 30/08/2019 08:36

Morning all

Checking in for my regular Friday FD

well done to 43 and Filly on yesterdays fasts.

Filly congrats on the SV...when I need quick and easy FD meals I use my slow cooker - a beef casserole / chilli etc Anything that is pretty much just veg and protein and portion off / bung in the freezer. EG - last night we had a casserole with beef, pearl barley, leek, celery, chopped tomatoes, carrots, and swede - spare portion has gone in the freezer for me for another time. It works for me!

I'm having a stir fry today which would also be quick and easy - chicken, small amount of rice noodles, whatever veg I fancy and bean sprouts - in pan , no oil... just bung in some low salt soy and garlic puree - yum

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/08/2019 08:38

Well done on your SV filly
Could you have some vegetable tortilla type thing in the fridge that you just add a salad too, or some soup to reheat?

bcf I actually like the sound of taebo more than spin (used to do spin classes years ago in my 20s) with zumba its the dance type moves that I struggle with but punching and kicking I can manage 😀 I'll keep my eye out thanks....

Woken up v hungry but gonna see if I can stretch it out a bit.

Good luck everyone else

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/08/2019 08:40

Morning mrd we keep cross posting 😀 mmm you've inspired me gonna have a chicken stir fry tonight

Fillybuster · 30/08/2019 09:56

Thanks both. The silly thing is that I’ve got the makings of quite a few of those things in the freezer, just not the patience at 9pm! Slow cooker works better for me when I’m at home, as I don’t have time in the mornings to throw stuff together. Or maybe I do, if it’s all pre chopped? But I’ve got cooked bolognaise, minestrone, veg soup, chicken bits, sausage stew, all tucked away - for some reason I don’t think of them on FDs, maybe because they aren’t exactly calorie counted so I don’t feel completely controlled?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/08/2019 10:50

Well done on your FD and SV, filly

I suggest you make a large batch of chilli, butternut squash & bean stew, whatever you fancy

  • see FD recipes in the OP under "how to start"

BUT calorie count as you make the batch, then divide and weigh the portions - and label them

You could also do low carb savoury muffins, either freeze and take a couple out in the morning to thaw in the fridge,
or make them in the mwave as mug muffins

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/08/2019 10:51

and of course have chooped raw veg in the frig to add as a side

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 30/08/2019 13:14

Filly - on the calorie counting side... I've learned that if I avoid carbs I don't often need to worry basically. Stir fry I count because it has the noodles, but things like a beef casserole - I counted it once, buy the same pack of beef, then bung in whatever veg I fancy - its rarely above around 300 cals a portion.

Just tucking into my stir fry now and have cals later for if needed as its come in around 350

bwydda · 30/08/2019 13:56

Filly- I don't know if you have it, but I use my fitness pal to work out my own recipes- there is a recipe option that lets you put in your own ingredients and servings and let's you save it. My bolognese serves 6 and is 232 cals per portion and so on. If you have the app you can save your recipes like this (photo)

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !
bwydda · 30/08/2019 13:57

Ps- I eat things that aren't bacon and soup, I swear GrinBlush

Fillybuster · 30/08/2019 15:52

Again, thanks all Flowers I didn’t know about the recipe tool, Bwydda, so will definitely take a look. And MrD, you’re completely right that my regular bolognaise, chilli, whatever recipes (sans carbs) are really really low cal anyway (especially since I cook a lot with quorn and barely use any oil) so the trick is working out in advance how I’m going to serve/eat them, and stop being so scared! BCF - savoury muffins? Mmmm....

onko · 30/08/2019 16:17

Great SV Filly
Well done on the minis 43. I’m taking your lead and doing minis yesterday (when I closed on 970) and today. I did it as I knew I wasn’t up to a second FD this week and really didn’t want another big fat fail, but I have calculated that according to my TDEE one FD plus two 1k minis is a marginally better weekly calorie deficit than two FDs (Rachel Riley eat your heart out) . Will remember this strategy for the future Smile

I have an NSV goal which is to get into a pair of Capri pants I bought last summer before it’s too cold to have the ankles out. I can get into them but they are majorly unsightly from the rear view so need to fast and shred off a cm or two first.

Happy weekends everyone

OohMrDarcy · 30/08/2019 19:42

Kitchen closed on 480 here

2 litres of water done, going to have another cup of tea and call it a night.

How are any other fasters doing?

My fingers are crossed that I might be below pre holiday weight in the morning

seizethecuttlefish · 30/08/2019 19:42

I've been lurking for a while. My 5:2 has been a struggle as I really need to reduce my carbs and I find a million excuses not too. Not completely diet related but can anyone recommend an exercise plan I can follow. I can walk for miles but otherwise I'm incredibly unfit and would like to be able to do something at home. I never liked gyms and having a toddler rules that out. I looked at Joe Wicks but there is no chance I can do a burpy!

OohMrDarcy · 31/08/2019 06:33

Morning all

Weigh in has me at 14st 7.4lb which is a loss of 1.2lb this week and puts me at nearly half a pound below my pre holiday weight! Over the moon with that, definitely a massive NSV there - learning good holiday habits!

Total loss now 3st 5lb ... creeping ever closer to the next half a stone marker and the exciting 50lb one too!

Anyone fasting or weighing in today?

Welcome cuttlefish,
I love walking too, you could start looking for more hilly or strenuous walks if you don't do those already? For at home if you want something quick but intense that works Jillian Michael's 30 day shred is a safe bet. 20 min work outs every day where you will feel like you may die 🤣 but will get you definite results visibly. Good luck!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 31/08/2019 08:54

Well done mrd that's fantastic 😁

Weigh in for me today after 3 mini FDs and its showing a 1lb gain Angry wtaf! I give up! Thing is I feel so much slimmer and less bloated and fit my clothes so much better but this hardly ever translates to a loss on the scales.

Things affecting it today.... I haven't been to the toilet properly all week Blush also I need to change the batteries but really don't think that is the reason why.

Anyway, going to plod on and try and have a good mindful weekend.... gah, it's just so f**king frustrating!

bwydda · 31/08/2019 09:16

I fell off the sensible wagon yesterday. Had a McDonald's (was stuck in three hour traffic on a journey that should have taken 40mins) which I calorie counted and could have got away with. But then my sister turned up crying with wine (she's left her shithead husband-yay) and I ended up drinking a bottle (!) of white and having a takeaway.

I feel awful and so stupid. One OR the other would have been fine and I could have accounted for it in my TDEE. A complete blowout isn't SadAngry

OohMrDarcy · 31/08/2019 09:43

43 - no giving up missus! You've not been for a week and that WILL be hiding the loss, been there ! Have a look at your fiber intake, that is where I was going wrong. Reccomended something like 30g a day and I was often not reaching 10! So now I'm just consciously adding in a little. A few times a week I will have a half a banana and some strawberries, or I'll add pearl barley to casseroles / stews etc. It is pretty easy to creep it up. I'm still nowhere near 30g but 20 keeps me regular! Good luck

Bwydda - dont worry about it, sister leaving Shithead ex is a one off type situation, and in my mind definitely required you supporting her however she needed! (Also been the one to leave a shithead, almost exactly 5 years ago actually!) Back to plan today and all will be fine.

onko · 31/08/2019 10:22

3st 5 is brilliant Mr D ⭐️
Next week’s weigh in will def hold the truth, 43.
Welcome cuttlefish. I’ll echo Mr Ds suggestion for 30 day shred (im a v recent JM convert; hadn’t heard of her until a couple of months ago). I’ve now on level
3 and whilst I’m not seeing signs of rapid weight loss I am seeing much less wobble and better definition e.g. I look like I used to when I sucked my tummy in and tensed my legs and arse. Also I feel amazing; it’s bloody hard work but I can put more and more into it each day and my recovery time
is so much better than on day 1.
Don’t worry bwydda you will get back on it and there is no damage done. For me the ability to get back on it and stay on it is the single defining characteristic of a successful diet/woe as there’s no way in hell that I won’t have blip days (weeks).

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 13:35

Congratulations on your SV, MrD
You're on your way to the 50lb milestone

That holiday gain was such a short blip because you handled it immediately

Don't worry, Bwydda
That was exceptional circumstances, entirely justified.

Weight loss is determined by what you do over several weeks and months
One day just doesn't matter

43 What counts is lost bodyyfat, which is lost inches, not always reflected by the scales.
Many 5:2ers find they are "smaller" at a particular weight than when they have been at that weight before

That is because fasting can improve body composition, i.e. less fat and more muscle even without increasing exercise

I suggest you take measurements at waist hips etc and monitor these.
Compare them to your earlier values, if you know them

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 13:39

HIIT burns more calories for the time spent
and can also help problems with insulin metabolism that may hold up weight loss

So short bursts & intervals,
e.g. spin class, sprint / jog intervals, rope skipping intervals ( v short !)

Shred is pretty HIIT too

OP posts: