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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
tuttifritti · 23/08/2019 13:37

FD going well. I got to a cafe and panicked a little when they didn't have soup on the menu but I opted for poached eggs and avocado with toast and left the toast so lunch came to around 212 cals.

tuttifritti · 23/08/2019 13:38

Welcome bwydda!

Sounds like you have a good plan.

OohMrDarcy · 23/08/2019 13:45

Welcome Bwydda - Don't worry about how much you have to lose, It will trickle off slowly and safely all the while helping your longterm health. I had a very long way to go at the start of this year, just back from holiday so a slight increase but I'm roughly 3.5 stone down already.

good luck fasting tutti - well done on the lunch option!

tuttifritti · 23/08/2019 14:14

That's amazing Darcy. Over what period have you lost the 3.5 stones?

OohMrDarcy · 23/08/2019 14:46

all this year tutti - started after christmas.

tuttifritti · 23/08/2019 16:24

That's brilliant Darcy. Very inspiring!

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2019 16:37

Welcome bwydda 🙂
Several people who have started 5:2 with BMI 40+ have had great success
Also those in the obese and overweight BMI classes

That's a good idea, to use this weekend to assess where you are

As you are checking intake, I recommend you calcuate what your body burns, with Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think

On NFDs, we try to develop the 5:2 longterm healthy habits for weight control that Mosely recommends,
which for most folk avoids having to calorie count on NFDs:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
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tuttifritti · 23/08/2019 16:59

Hope everyone is enjoying the sunshine.

I've closed the kitchen on 518 calories. The last two weigh ins after FD's I was slightly up so hoping for a better result tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2019 17:27

Well done on your FD, tutti
A few people tend to show the fasting weight loss a day later, after the NFD
So don't get discouraged, but try to keep Saturday sensible

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IceniSky · 23/08/2019 19:26

Had a bad NFD today. Started well with two boiled eggs and cucumber for breakfast, but then picnic of cheese and pickle sandwich, a few mini vegan sausage roles, tomatos and sugar snaps, a small ice cream and dinner of 1/2 Papa John's veggie pizza.

We were out for the day and have done an 8 mile walk but not enough to eat so far over my TDEE.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2019 19:42

It doesn't sound that bad, ice
Note any triggers to avoid, then move on

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BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2019 19:43

Sounds like the main issues to avoid are grazing or snacking between meals

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bwydda · 23/08/2019 21:39

Thank you all for the welcome.

Well done darcy- 3.5 stone over a year would be amazing and would put me (still overweight) but exactly where I was happiest with myself. That's an amazing achievement.

OohMrDarcy · 24/08/2019 07:15

Morning all

Managed to give blood again yesterday, that is 29 donations now. Also managed a pretty good NFD - ignoring the fact you get a snack after donating of course.
Just over another pound down this morning at 14st 8.6 which leaves me 0.8lb of holiday gain left to lose and I've only been back a few days! Smile

No big plans over the bank holiday weekend, just slowly getting organised again and will fit in a walk if I can. Next FD is Tuesday for me.

Bwydda I'm almost halfway through my journey so still a way to go , but I'm happy plodding along.

tuttifritti · 24/08/2019 07:36

Well done on giving blood Mr D. Where do you do it?

I am down 3 pounds!! After gaining 2 ounces on both my last weigh ins I'm very happy to have had a big drop. I am now 11st 0lb 6oz so in touching distance of a weight beginning with 10st.

How are you getting on Bywdda?

IceniSky · 24/08/2019 08:45

Good job on the losses. I knew I shouldn't have weighed myself this morning but am now 4lbs up and no sign of AF but everything is tight. Could be the heat too. I spend any holiday abroad puffy. Bit depressing. Practically where I started.

Have had 3 medium scrambled eggs today with mushrooms and no toast to get me through an hour of martial arts. That annoys me too! Why a white uniform. Makes me very nervous while awaiting AF!

I'll drink lots of water today and herbal teas.

tuttifritti · 24/08/2019 09:17

Iceni, it will come soon. Hopefully after your class!

Great breakfast. Is that for NFD?

OohMrDarcy · 24/08/2019 09:21

Hey tutu, my local hospital had a permanent blood donor centre ap I generally go there, but sometimes I do the local mobile ones too. Congrats on the SV!

iceni east come easy go when it comes to AF related weight gain. As long as you haven't smacked loads it is probably water and will disappear again soon. I used to do karate, it's a real pain with AF, did leak once! 😱

BigChocFrenzy · 24/08/2019 10:16

Good for you, donating blood, MrD 🏅

Congratulations on your SVs, MrD, tutti
Holiday gain goes v quickly, MrD when you tackle it immediately, as you did, so it is doesn't become permanent

iceni I recommend people don't weigh around totm, because the readings are meaningless with all the retained water.

Just step away from the scales until the NFD after the FD following the end of totm
It's only after this that you can properly monitor progress

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/08/2019 10:17

You'll soon be in the 10 stone somethings, tutti, your next milestone

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tuttifritti · 24/08/2019 11:21

Thanks Big Choc!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2019 08:43

Morning all
I'm fasting today - anyone else *

Another scorcher - 31 C again
Off to the gym shortly, then a Rhine walk sometime later
Several people swimming in the Rhine yesterday - I might have a paddle

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bwydda · 25/08/2019 09:10

Morning all. I'm not fasting yet (first fast tomorrow) but am carrying on as I have been but honestly logging all that I eat and drink , and it's no wonder I'm so big! I've completely lost track of normal eating I think- I eat at least 600 calories OVER my TDEE. More yesterday- Pizza Hut (280 Cals per slice of the philly cheese!!!)

I'm reading everything I can on 5:2 and wanted to really understand my current eating before I jumped into fasting , but it's made me worry that o just won't cope on a FD as it's so little comparatively.

I'm currently planning a variety of meal plans/ different options for fast days , and then off to shop in prep for it- if nothing else I think nutritionally I'll be hugely better of, fast day options are (obviously) very veg heavy Grin

OohMrDarcy · 25/08/2019 10:56

Morning all

Go for your dip bigchoc, will feel fab in the heat!

Bwydda - try not to worry, it is easier tha you think! Focus on protein / veg on your FDs and you can eat well still. Make sure you drink plenty of water to help too!

NFD here, and I'm chilling after catching up on washing etc over the last couple of days. Heading over to see my sister this afternoon and go for a walk with her in the sunshine so I can pretend I'm on holiday still! Grin
Debating getting up super early tomorrow to go see a sunrise from a beautiful spot.... we shall see!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2019 11:25

That's good to chill a bit longer , MrD

Don't worry, Bwydda

Funnily enough, most people find FDs, with the strict rules - no added sugar, no other junk, no alcohol - easier than the NFDs if you have to retrain your "normal" eating
The 5:2 healthy habits I postedabove, mostly Mosely's advice, will help get NFDs under control

I suggest you ease in the first week or so with 800 calories, which is enough for 2-3 small meals.

Mosely & other fasting experts say:
Never graze or snack, FDs or NFDs, because that increases overall hunger & calories

Plan your FD menu in advance today, what you will eat and when you will eat it
As MrD says, cut out most / all starchy carbs and concentrate on masses of veg, with a decent portion of protein

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