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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
tuttifritti · 17/08/2019 09:27

Well done 43! That's amazing either way. Well done you 👏

Thanks Big Choc. This weigh in was after second FD and conditions pretty much as described. I'm not too worried about it as it is such a small amount and the trend is definitely downwards. I am charting with photos and seeing a difference.

I've started getting the 'you've lost weight' comments so hopefully my efforts are paying off in other ways.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2019 09:30

Well done on your SV, 43

Sounds like at one of the weigh-ins you converted stone to lb wrongly
A common mistake when stones are given in fractions is to take the fraction as lb

e.g. if your earlier weigh-in was 12.8 stone, that is 12 stone 11.2 lb, not 12 stone 8 lb

Also, there could be rounding errors, if scales or mfp only have 1 figure after the decimal point,

e.g. you could have been 12.75 stone, which is 12 stone 10.5 lb

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 17/08/2019 09:31

TOTM ruined my 2nd fast day, I think. I managed Tuesday just fine but Thursday was disastrous😄. I felt shaky and horrible which is unusual for me. The children all have horrible respiratory viruses so I might also be sub-clinically unwell (winter here). Friday is always too busy for me to fast so I’ll start all over again next week.

43- now that I’m pretty much at maintenance I’ve stopped regular weigh-ins as there can be pretty much minute by minute changes in the scale. Why don’t you go with a 3 lb loss because that’s still awesome and then if it’s really 5lb you’re pretty much sorted for next week’s loss as well.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2019 09:31

Enjoy your compliments NSV, tutti

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Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/08/2019 19:55

Nope, still confused Grin I stood on my scales in lb mode then stood on it in stones mode (did this 3 times to check) and the first said 171 lbs but second said 12 st 5lb. The week previous I stood on and I was 12 st 8lbs which I worked out to be 176lbs (12×14+8?) So if I go on lbs setting that's -5lbs but on stone setting it's only -3lbs? Is my original conversion wrong? But how? Sorry but I NEED to understand this Hmm

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/08/2019 19:58

Oh and is it because stones are given in fractions? I just thought if I weigh 12 st 8 or 10 or 11 or 12 or 13 it tells me that then goes onto the next stone to account for there being 14 stones in a pound. Have i been weighing myself wrong all this time?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2019 23:18

43
12 stone = 168 lb

12 st 3 lb = 171 lb
12 st 5 lb = 173 lb
12 st 8 lb = 176 lb

12.5 st = 175 lb
12.7 st = 177.8 lb
12.8 st = 179.2 lb

If your scales use fractions and only 1 digit for stones,
then your weight from the previous week could have been 12.75 stone which is 178.5 lb, but would be shown on your stones setiing as 12.8 stone

However, your readings today can't be correct, because 171 lb is 12 st 3 lb,
so both 12 st 5 lb and 12.5 st would be wrong

On the stone setting, could you have misread "3" as "5" ?
On digital scales, the two digits may be mistaken for each other

Or did your post have a typo ?

If not .... maybe your scales need new batteries ?

My advice
==> Keep to the same units from now on ! 😂

If your stone setting is shown in fractions, then use lb (or kg if you have that setting too)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2019 23:43

If stones are shown in fractions, you would need to multiply it by 14 to get the lb
which is too much work !
Hence my recommendation for either lb or kg

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/08/2019 23:51

Thanks bcf I totally get what you are saying but I didn't misread. I will replace the batteries though and see of makes any difference Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/08/2019 00:24

Oh and I'm gonna stick to lbs for an easier life!! :-)

EssentialHummus · 18/08/2019 07:48

43 if it’s any consolation I grew up in the Southern Hemisphere and can’t conceptualise stones/lbs at all. As is, you could tell me a car weighs 2 stone or 600 lbs and I wouldn’t be able to imagine/assess that. So I am reading the last few posts with interest and you have my sympathies on the issue!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 08:45

Good luck, 43 !
Take a baseline reading 1st thing the morning after you have the batteries

I've just realised that you can buy batteries today, you lucky thing - all shops shut Sundays in Germany
< whispers > I've always found that frustrating Blush

I can only wonder if you moved the scales at all between readings - different floor slope / type of surface
or if you were unconsciously leaning to the front / side etc while reading, as that can affect the reading

Also, with digital scales always count to 3 before stepping on, to be sure they have had time to calibrate properly

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 08:50

hummus I wonder if being more my generation, you also learned all the Imperial measures at school ?

I learned hundredweight, furlongs, also pounds, shillings & pence etc then was switched gradually to metric at the end of primary school
Oh well, at least it meant I knew up to my 12 times table v young Grin

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EssentialHummus · 18/08/2019 09:03

Yes bigchoc! And in my second language. I was Confused Grin.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 13:13

hummus Grin
It may have built up a good arithmetical base that helped you later ?

I'm sure that learning my tables with Mum while skipping along 2 miles each way, every day to kindergarten,
is what has made me so comfortable with numbers & calculations, hence my scientific career
(Like most folk we knew, we didn't own a car until 1961)

That journey is probably also responsible for my lifelong love of walking & exercise.

Lifestyle changes since then - transport, white goods, snacks, fast food, lattes, fizz etc - are what make it so much more difficult now to stay a healthy weight.
It really isn't a sudden drop in Western moral fibre;
it's the obesogenic environment we have had since about 1980 and neither our bodies nor our brains could evolve sufficiently quickly to cope.

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 18/08/2019 13:36

It took me the other way actually - I got very good at languages Grin. Which is not surprising, as we moved countries repeatedly throughout my childhood. And as DH is Russian DD is now coping with the same, with each of us speaking another language to her and me picking up bits from what they watch/say to each other.

Peachypips78 · 18/08/2019 17:42

Hi all. Can I slope shamefacedly back after an absence of a few years???!!!

I am at my heaviest since after I had DS2. My eating is out of control! I have started alternate day fasting as I find it easier to fast if I do it more frequently, and it also stops binge eating for me. My TDEE is approximately 2000 and my next fast day is tomorrow. I have been at it a week. Starting weight is 13 st 4.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 18:42

Welcome back, peachy
and good luck tomorrow

It's important to avoid an alternate fasting / bingeing WOE, which would worsen your problems
So, to help get eating under control, I recommend you use the NFDs to form new healthy habits for life

The best way is to try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Once you have reached goal, this time you know you need - like almost everyone - a defined maintenance plan
Don't worry, we discuss maintenance options whenever someone approaches goal

OP posts:
IceniSky · 18/08/2019 19:35

Does it matter if you go over the 500 slightly? I'll be having a tin of tuna for lunch but have left over salad from today to add to it. Not sure of calories in that but mainly leaves with no dressing.

I'm finding in creeping up to 520 on FDs.

EssentialHummus · 18/08/2019 20:01

Totally fine ice. That sounds like a lovely meal.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 20:15

No problem, ice

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BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2019 11:02

Lovely sunny day again here Smile
So I've enjoyed a morning Rhine walk

I'm having an FD
Any other Monday fasters ?

As usual I plan a big salad with some sort of protein - haven't decided yet - with 1 meal about 4 or 5 pm
I have back & abs training 8-9 pm , so I need a reasonably empty tum for that, but with enough fuel for full power

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/08/2019 11:37

welcome back peach and good luck with your first FD

Ice I go over quite a lot of the time on my FDs and it hasn't really affected anything (yet)

Enjoy the sunshine bcf, and all of your exercise, its actually quite sunny here in between the showers. Nfd today, got FDs planned for tues and thurs this week.

Good luck monday fasters Smile

tuttifritti · 19/08/2019 16:44

Hope all going well for the fasters today.

I am fasting tomorrow and Friday. Today was a heavy gym session so I usually try not to fast on the same day on the advice of my trainer.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2019 18:02

How are you doing on your 1st FD back, Peachy ?
It's ok if you need to go a bit over and ease your way back into fasting.

Well done on the exercise, tutti

and good luck with your FDs tomorrow, 43, tutti

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