5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Many other 5:2ers have fairly indulgent weekends and still lose

• I suspect they just weren't as greedy & junky as I used to be 😂

what about socialising though?

If it's a meal out I won't fast (will plan another day), if it's something like cinema I suppose it depends how much I fancy popcorn . We're not big drinkers at all, so I guess if you go to the pub a lot that also bears consideration. (My calories like bigchoc's are/were from lots of junk food, so that's what I was trying to address.)

Checking back in now my b2b is over. Today was really tough - DD (2) decided not to nap, I had heaps of work to do... not a good combination. I think food consumption was ok overall (I ate the same as yesterday) but I know that had it not been a FD I'd have had my head in the biscuit tin. We spent the afternoon with her best buddy which took the pressure off and got us out the house at least.

How did you get on mrd?

Kitchen closed on 540 on another successful FD.

I'm another one - Fridays are generally a FD so they don't turn into fuckitall Fridays

Weighing in tomorrow morning then plan to be extra sensible all weekend and have another fast Monday before holiday officially starts Tuesday evening. !

So as predicted, I’ve not been great today - not horrendous but not like the last four days. If you do 5:2 how many calories do you have on a non fast day?

cozy the advice is to eat to your TDEE (calculator in the OP^). I don’t calorie count on non fast days, but tend to stick to “vaguely healthy” on weekdays and “whatever I want” on weekend days. But some people prefer to use something like MyFitnessPal to track calories.

Well done on getting through today!

Well done on your FDs, hummus, MrD
You did especially well, hummus completing your b2b under such tough conditions
Good luck, tomorrow, MrD and a sensible WE is a good plan for us all.

Cozy Most people try to just eat sensibly on NFDs, without counting cals
e.g. following the 5:2 healthy habits I posted upthread
main tips are no snacking, sensible about treats with meals and keep NHS alcohol daily limits - about 1 glass wine.

I recommend people use NFDs to gradually change their "normal" eating & drinking habits for the longterm
That's part of what makes 5:2 a WOE, not a short term "diet"

If you want a rough calorie target, then aim for TDEE and use Mosely's TDEE Calc

He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think

It often helps to roughly plan your meals the day before; that's not calorie counting, just choosing which protein, veg sides, carbs and roughly the times of your meals
Try to boost the veg and drink lots of water

Many people like 4 meals, 1 of which is a small tea; others prefer just 2 or 3 meals. Your choice
Main thing is: don't eat between meals; that includes fruit, lattes, alcohol, biscuits etc - have those only as part of a meal.

I’m still here! Have spent a month with no loss then an unexpected one on Friday. Am now 62.2, so 200g to go. Last weekend was decadent with 4 meals in a row out as we were away, plus alcohol when I got back so it’s weird there was a loss, but I’ll take it.

I did a Tuesday/Wednesday b2b but both were sub 800 which now seems what I’m aiming for, given that I’m essentially there.

I definitely overdo it on Fridays as well, but as long as it’s just one day it doesn’t seem to matter. cozy I don’t count on NFDS, that’s why this works for me as restricting and counting every day would seem too punitive. As a combination though 5:2 and not drinking mom-Thursday seems to work.

Morning all

Weigh in today says 14st 8.4lb which means I've lost that sneaky pound that crept on last week again but nothing more. Total loss 3st 4lb.

Hoping I can creep it down another tiny bit before holiday and then I'll be trying not to go too crazy whilst away! First FD after coming home is booked in for the Thursday (return Weds) as giving blood on the Friday and that doesn't work so well with fasting!

Well done on the SV surprised

Morning everyone

Well done on your SVs, surprised, MrD

So close to goal, surprised !
That's excellent planning, MrD, that you've booked those 2 important dates after your hols

Nolonger, I think your approach sounds good for me, I don’t think I can manage on 800 calories every day, it is too punitive and whilst not bad as my husband is away, when normal life resumes and we are going out at weekends, I will need to be able to relax to a degree.
How much weight have you lost and over how long a period? Well done for being so close to your goal!

cozy Another alternative to Fast800 is to do normal 5:2
So you just have 2 FDs and you don't have to go low carb

iirc, nolonger does 5:2, not Fast800 - but she now has FDs of 800 instead of 500 cals
and then has the 5 NFDs normal eating.

The problems with doing Fast800 and relaxing at weekends, as you propose,
is that Fast800 is low carb and hence the weekends also need to be low carb,
even though you can increase weekend calories as you wish

Otherwise, you would take another 2 days to get back into ketosis,
so you would be out of ketosis half the week, which loses some weight loss benefits of Fast800

Bigchoc thank you for that. So with 5:2 you don’t have ketosis but the weight does come off. I can do 800 cals and think that in general I lose weight by lowering carbs. I’ve tried slimming world etc and it doesn’t work for me as I eat carbs (which I love!)
How would it work doing 800 cal fasts 4 consecutive days then around 2000 at weekends?

Cozy To lose 1lb weekly takes roughly 3000 cals deficit; 1kg about 7,000 cals

So rate of loss depends on intake and Calc TDEE
(Remember to use one activity level lower than you think)

Example:
If your TDEE = 2000 and you have 4 X 800 FDs + 3 x 2000 NFDs
then your weekly deficit would be 4800
to give a theoretical weekly loss of about 1.5 lb (.7 kg)

However, people with a lot of weight to lose would do so more quickly than the theory, whereas someone already within healthy BMI would probably lose more slowly

Also, loss can be slowed by conditions like premeno / meno, insulin resistance / preT2, PCOS, thyroid, some prescribed meds ....
and a junky / boozy diet also hinders ftáát-burning.

However, 4 FDs sounds like a "diet" and not sustainable longterm
Are you happy doing that atm - fine if so
Otherwise, why not try Mon+Wed+Fri instead ?

I suggest also rather than strict "low" carb that you try "lower, slower" carb, i.e.

• Cut out added sugar / carby treats, e.g. cake, biscuits, crisps, pizza
  or 2:5 them, i.e. just one portion on 2 days per week

• Boost beans, peas, lentils and of course lots of veg - aim to fill half your plate with veg /beans

• Cut right back on alcohol
  Drink lots of water

• Switch to wholegrain bread, porridge oats (that you cook) instead of breakfast cereal, brown / red rice instead of white, the famous MN quinoa instead of pasta

• and moderate that carb portion size to 80g cooked weight

However it won't work well if you revert to very carby and / or boozy habits at weekends
because that would maintain the cravings and keep insulin levels high on 3-4 days per week.

So weekends are when you relax with bigger portions and eat until satisfied - not stuffed -
plus optionally say one glass wine and an extra portion of fruit
but don't pile on the carbs or sugar; just have one sensible portion as a limit

Well done MrD and Well done surprised! Amazing to be in touching distance of your goal!

I have completed my two FD's this week. We were away and I did have some fish and chips. Not sure what the scales will say. I also have my period but barely registered my usual pre menstrual symptoms this month such as bloating and mood swings. Would be amazing if that was down to 5:2. Anyone noticed anything similar?

In terms of the day, I closed the kitchen at 490 calories. It's incredible how much easier the FD's are now. No headaches and barely any hunger.

iirc, nolonger does 5:2, not Fast800 - but she now has FDs of 800 instead of 500 cals
and then has the 5 NFDs normal eating.

Yep, I’ve been doing 5:2. cozy, I have lost over 13kg, with it the result of slow weight creep in my 40s. I lost the first 11kg in about 5 months but once I got to 64kg (my first goal) it was slower.

I’ve been 64kg a lot of my adult life (pregnancies notwithstanding) but once I was there I realised I could stand to lose a bit more. My more relaxed FDs have been after I’ve been back to my normal weight and although I’m still losing a bit my mindset is more that of maintenance.

5:2 has worked amazingly well for me, I’m reasonably active and overall my eating patterns aren’t awful - I just had years of too much, too often plus presumably a drop in metabolism. Its bonus is that on NFDs I don’t think about food much at all.

Excellent progress, surprised
and done in a way that fits pretty easily into your life

Many 5:2ers have found on reaching their original goal that they can comfortably move to a further goal

Well done on your FDs, tutti

Fasting can help some - definitely not all - women with period symptoms,
because it can help issues of insulin metabolism that cause some of these problems

Fish & chips on an NFD is fine as a weekly treat for nearly everyone
Fish is good for you; add some mushy peas or tomato and I'd class it as a reasonably healthy meal, definitely not junk.
What tends to slow weight loss is whole pizzas, or lots of cake, biscuits, crisps etc or of course boozy nights

Morning all

Checking in for my pre-holiday FD (we leave for the airport hotel tomorrow)

I'm here too mrD, morning!

Morning! Me too :-)
How much weight did you all lose in your first week? I appear to have lost 3kg which is an awful lot for me, usually the scales hardly move initially. Just another 10kg to go...sigh

Morning everyone - sneaking back onto thread again but this time I mean business. Been in a real blue mood the last few months (too many reasons to list here) and this has shown in my eating (and weight gain) so today is a fresh start, I hate feeling uncomfortable in my skin and I am so sick of being controlled by food, FD for me today and Friday

Well done cozy that us a fab first week loss.

Morning all. Checking in for a FD after a week off recovering from chicken pox.
Sadly I went bonkers last week (chocolate featured in a very big way) have undone a lot of the previous 6 weeks hard work (I don’t have scales but my bloated face and tum gives me the picture).

Back on it now - kick-started the morning with a JM blast and will be aiming to do the same every morning . Good luck all Monday fasters.

wowsa lots of fasting buddies today!

Cozy - fab first week loss, the first week often has a fair amount of retained water in it so that helps the number along, but still feels good!

43 - don't sweat it lovely, I've been there - at least you are coming back and keeping trying! Might be worth trying some bedtime guided meditations? They certainly helped my mood!

Welcome back , 43
I hope the stress in your life calms down, but at least feeling happier in your skin should help a bit

Congratulations on your SV, cozy
Good start
Most folk lose quite a bit in the first week or so, as some of it is retained water, then slow down

Good luck, MrD, Hummus, 43, onko, cozy and any other Monday fasters