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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Fillybuster · 07/08/2019 22:19

Well done MrD Smile Any chance you could pm me the slow cook mince recipe at some point please? Mainly timings and quantities, as it’s a given I’ll go off-piste on ingredients GrinGrin I’ve never yet managed to stick to a recipe (except baking, that’s different...although even there I can get a little carried away...!) Anyway, I love my slow cooker and don’t use it enough so would welcome some inspiration if you have time Flowers

FD was weirdly fine. I didn’t even take advantage of my additional calorie allowance for b2b: a second long fast and ate at 9.30 again. Added a little bit of skin free roast chicken to my buttenut squash and couscous, and having square of 90% Godiva choc with a mint tea now. So closing out just under 500 Smile

Sadly failed to get to my evening class but since I’ve still not finished packing it was probably the right call Confused It’s weird but I’m feeling properly sad about not being able to go to the gym for the next 3 weeks, even though I only joined about 6-7 weeks ago and I hadn’t been for 2 years before that. I’ve been really enjoying working out 4/5 times a week (yup, weird...& v unlike me!) and don’t want to stop. In fact I’ve packed my gym shoes, skipping rope and some hand weight (shhh!! Don’t tell dh...! Wink) so I can do some YouTube workouts whilst I’m away.

Welcome Cozy. You’ll get amazing support and advice on this thread Smile and there are some inspirational stories. So far I’ve lost just over half a stone, but my main focus is health and fitness rather than weight, as I’m looking for long term gains and sustainable improvements, which I won’t get from a diet.

OneLuckyLady · 07/08/2019 23:05

I went off-piste at the weekend with a Chinese takeaway, a couple of G&Ts and crisps. The result? A 2lb weight gain between Friday and Monday.

Today is W2D3 and I weighed in this morning the same weight as I was on Friday, so it took me the same length of time to lose the 2lbs as it did to gain it over the weekend. Net loss so far though is 6.6 lbs overall.

I've got an evening wedding reception on Friday so will be on the sparkly stuff, gin and most likely cocktails (as well as cake) on Friday night, but no plans for the rest of the weekend, so I'll do my best not to undo all my efforts.

This thread is great, thanks for the support and invaluable advice x

OohMrDarcy · 08/08/2019 06:54

Welcome cozy
People are doing many variations - think that majority are 5:2 , I throw in 16:8 as well. I've lost more than 3st this year so far myself and am nearly halfway to my goal.

Filly no probs, will send over - I warn you now, I'm a bit rogue about everything in the slow cooker Grin

Well done for retaining the control one.

NFD today, survived the first sleepover of the hols. Have 3 tweens in a tent tonight! I will have definitely earned the holiday when it finally arrives 😉

Cozyblanket · 08/08/2019 07:40

Hi, thanks for the welcome, quick question, it’s day three and a headache has set in and I think my breath smells too (yuk) is this normal and will it pass?

MrD, well done on surviving a sleepover without wine 🍷

EssentialHummus · 08/08/2019 08:10

Have a good holiday filly, well done one.

cozy I do 5:2 and have lost 2 stone something over 10 months, now nearing maintenance, I have a lovely weight loss graph I'll dig out a bit later showing all the ups and downs (literally!) Grin.

Headaches - I'd have lots and lots of water (like, litres), but bcf usually recommends a teaspoon of Bovril I think (or was it Marmite?) to replenish salts. Breath smelling will pass.

FD here, possibly tomorrow too, and for once I'm slightly more organised with the food I have in - anyone else?

EssentialHummus · 08/08/2019 08:10

mrd I always looked forward to the sleepover stage starting - dd is only 2 - but three in a tent is making me question that!

Cozyblanket · 08/08/2019 08:55

Thanks - how long for breath to improve!

EssentialHummus · 08/08/2019 09:08

If you google “keto breath” you’ll get a few ideas cozy - I’m not sure there’s consensus.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/08/2019 09:51

Well done on your b2b, filly
That's brilliant that you are so hooked on exercise now - it's an important longterm habit for health & fitness

Welcome, cozy 🙂
No guilt allowed here !
We are all trying to get to / stay within a healthy weight range within a chronicallly obesogenic social & work environment

Headaches

  • Drink more water, FDs and NFDs too. Start each day with a glass and keep water by you throughout the day

Mosely recommends avoiding fizzy drinks, even diet ones, as sweeteners change the gut flora and can lead to longterm weight gain, like sugar
Sparkling water is fine.

  • On FDs / on Fast800, glug a teasp Marmite from the jar mid-morning and / or early afternoon, to avoid headaches. Marmite replenishes salt & minerals that can be low while your body adapts to fasting

Many folk do different fasting combinations.
Yours sounds ok, BUT

Fast800 does have some additional important rules:

  • It is daily low carb, which is essential to get the full benefits If you stop low carbing for even one day, it takes about 2 days to get back into ketosis, so a good chunk of the week you won't be really on Fast800

==> if you want to relax at weekends, then stay low carb

i.e. eat as much as you want of the same foods as Fast800 - no sugary or starchy food, at most 1 glass wine, 1 portion fruit - but relax about the calories

  • breath - that's typical of low carb, but not really of 16:8 or 5:2 It means ketosis has set in, which is the aim of low carb

It usually stays for as long s you low carb
So, use mouthwash
(not breathmints, as Mosely recommends avoiding sweeteners, not just sugar)

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 08/08/2019 09:57

Thanks all. Bastard sodding scales still said 9.11 this morning - I can’t believe that they are only 2lbs down after 2 FDs b2b and loads of exercise so I’ve decided they must be wrong GrinGrin.

Anyway, feeling good (which is the main thing) and not dreading wearing my new bikini (yay!) - bags packed and heading off soon Grin

See you when I get back Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 08/08/2019 10:01

Good luck to the Thursday fasters Smile

lucky Many folk find they regularly spend much of the week - and the FDs - hauling back weekend damage

5:2 basically has 2 "Diet" days - which are VLCD - plus 5 "Maintenance" days - on which you eat "normally", to maintain a weekly deficit

Many folk have got overweight either by continuing to eat as they did in teens or early 20s,
or because their "normal" eating was always more than what their individual body & activity level could burn.

So, many of us need to retrain our "normal" - that is the difference between a WOE with longterm changes and a shortterm diet

I recommend everyone tries to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends - basically Mosely's advice:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/08/2019 10:06

Don't worry about it filly, you know that was the NFDs, maybe snacking & treats / alcohol
You can tackle those habits again when you return

Now off you go, enjoy your vacation and wearing your pretty bikinis
As ever with a vacation:
==> write down now the date of your next planned FD for your return

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 08/08/2019 10:24

Hummus - the sleepovers are fun really. Had DS and his mate last night - super easy - Xbox / lego / reading / done.

The tweens in a tent tonight is a cunning plan for peace for me [grin[

Itstheprinciple · 08/08/2019 17:37

FD today. Gone a bit pear shaped - ended up at around 750 as I caved at lunch time and had a bowl of overnight oats but then just had a spinach, ham and feta frittata for tea. I really needed something at lunch though as was tackling school uniform shopping and couldn't face it on an empty stomach! And everything I've had has been healthy and natural - nothing artifical and only natural sugars so I'm feeling better about myself. Im not sure how much weight I'm losing but I'm certainly feeling healthier and watching what I eat more carefully on other days. I've not been an angel by any means but I've massively cut down on snacking, all but stopped really. There's more alcohol being consumed than normal due to being off work (I don't drink on work nights so come September that will go back down again). I just feel like I'm giving my body a bit of a break and definitely not as bloated so happy days.

EssentialHummus · 08/08/2019 19:22

Sounds like you made good food choices its. You’d almost certainly lose weight faster without the alcohol, but it sounds like this is your “let your hair down” time of year.

FD here too - coffee in the morning then this for lunch and dinner. It was really tasty! Broccoli, courgette and tomatoes with a teaspoon of oil, garlic, masala spice and a bit of water, in a pan until charred. No idea of calories but should be ok I think. And a biscuit.

May try for a b2b tomorrow since I’m going to want to eat the same thing again anyway Grin.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !
BigChocFrenzy · 08/08/2019 20:03

That looks amazingly colourful & healthy, hummus
and definitely makes a b2b tempting

Well done on your FD, principle
and on having nearly stopped the snacking
That's a good habit NSV

Don't worry about going a bit over sometimes, so long as it's healthy food

As hummus says, you'd progress more quickly and give your liver a nice break if on NFDs you can keep to the NHS alcohol limits
That's about 1 glass wine, NFDs only (alcohol is not allowed on FDs)

When you drink alcohol, your body stops fat-burning for several hours, because your liver prioritises processing the alcohol toxins

When you drink a lot in the evening, then the overnight fast is replaced by processing alcohol, instead of the major fat-burning that should be happening

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 09/08/2019 07:31

Morning all,

Friday FD here and I am looking forward fo my stir fry dinner!

Anyone else fasting today?

I forgot how quiet it gets on here in holiday season!

EssentialHummus · 09/08/2019 07:34

Hey mrd, checking in too.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/08/2019 08:20

Good luck, MrD, hummus
You both have delic dinners to look forward to.

The MN posting problems have probably been making it quieter too, but hopefully they have now been corrected
I've found MN a real pain the last week

OP posts:
Itstheprinciple · 09/08/2019 08:26

When I say I'm having more alcohol than normal, I'm not completely hammering it. I'm having a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, or a couple of beers if we have a barbecue or a couple of gins but that's all. Its still not every night by any means but it's more frequent than in term time because I don't drink during the week then. But I know they are wasted calories and I didn't know that about it affecting your body in that way so I've learned something new there.

Cozyblanket · 09/08/2019 09:56

I’m on my 4th day of the Fast 800, doing ok so far though I may have a couple of glasses of wine at the weekend. It’s interesting about the effect though....
Anyone else find the weekends harder?

EssentialHummus · 09/08/2019 10:45

cozy I initially found weekends impossible because I associated them with treats. Now I tend to have a FD on the weekend, to stop me overeating (more bang for my buck compared with weekdays).

Cozyblanket · 09/08/2019 10:52

Hmm I also see them as treat days, what about socialising though?

BigChocFrenzy · 09/08/2019 11:26

Like hummus, back in the weight loss phase, I found weekends were sabotaging my whole week
I was getting nowhere
So I made Friday and either Sat or Sun an FD

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/08/2019 11:27

That trained me that socialising didn't have to mean scoffing junk or nibbles

OP posts: