5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

salt

Aargh. Somehow I’m 2 days behind on the thread!

Super late FD check in. Just completed my second gym class of the day: did an abs class instead of having a lunch break and then legged it to a HIIT class as soon as I finished work. Made a double batch of butternut squash & chickpea between calls this afternoon so will have that for dinner with a big green salad and something a bit carby, like quinoa or couscous. Dh fancies some too - you know it’s a win when it doesn’t look like “diet” food!

Off to catch up on the thread now...

Sounds a healthy FD, filly and tasty too
Well done on the lunch exercise

Thursday morning here and FD number 2. I tried a b2b Tuesday/Wednesday and ate my FD dinner then ate more last night so had a full meal and will try again today. I was tired yesterday with children waking us up so I don’t feel too bad. Today should be easier especially as DH will be cooking and I feel rested.

I’ll have eggs for breakfast as I’m working then miso around 2pm and some of the stir fry this evening. I can’t do it on Friday as I’m going away for a night with my older two and they’ll be a meal out and a glass of wine (for me, not them!)

Head Office trip today cancelled - 2.5hrs sleep due to major incident overnight

On the good side,

Tea... lots of Tea.

Oh dear MrD - that doesn’t sound good. Are you ok?

Enjoy the tea Darcy. I am doing an FD today too.

Going to wait until lunch and have either some soup or a chicken breast and maybe a salmon fillet or omelette tonight.

I had a body composition test done this week and I have apparently built 4.8kg of muscle and lost the same amount of fat! Very happy with that but would like the scales to go down too so hoping this diet will help with that.

I hope all is ok now, MrD
Can you manage a siesta - 2.5 hrs sleep is hellish

Brilliant body composition, tutti
You must have trained hard

That is far more important than scales, imo
Higher % muscle and lower % fat is really important for health & longevity

Also improves your shape, as muscle is denser than fat

• and noone knows the scales unless you tell them; they only know you look leaner

Anyway, 5:2 should help burn fat and move the scales along

It was fine to postpone FD2 when you were so tired, surprised
Good luck on your FD today

Good luck to any other fasters too

Glorious sunny day here, not too hot
So I'm off on another day cruise to check out a gym in another possible retirement town
I know civilised folk would look for theatres & art galleries, but for me only the gym & being by the river (for pretty walks) matters

Hi everyone can I join? I’ve been doing IF (16:8) every day for the last week after cutting out carbs and am feeling much better already in my body.

I am having cravings for sweets but am hoping that goes with time. And wine. Haven’t managed to give up the wine yet but that is my next goal. It just makes me so groggy the next day and is expensive! Last night I caved because of man trouble. Well man not accepting no trouble! So I had a glass.

But every day is a new day right?

So the headache has passed, and I'm 1.5kg down since Tuesday morning, 2.9kg since Monday morning. Why didn't I think of this before my holiday, instead of after? 🤦🏼‍♀️😂. I'm sure a lot of it will be water loss, but it's very motivating.

For info, I'm 5'5" and starting weight was 10st 13lbs / 69kg. I'm looking to get to about 9.5 stone.

Hello, can I join you? I've been doing 5:2 for a week or so. I'm 5'8, 11st 1 and would like to be anywhere sub-10st 5 (ideally 10st but trying to be realistic!) so not loads to lose. I'm currently a size 12, not too bothered about dropping a size but if I can eventually that would be an added bonus.

I was 9st 7 forever when I was early 20s, even after I had DD at 25, I bounced straight back but as I hit 30, it started creeping on and I could no longer get away with eating and drinking whatever I wanted. I have been 10st 10-10st 12 for most of my 30s (now 37). Have recently started on medication which has a side effect of weight gain and, within few weeks, I'd broken the 11st mark so this is my wake up call.

DH has been doing 5:2 since the beginning of the year. He's rubbish at weighing himself but his clothes are definitely looser, had to put extra holes in his belt etc. He hasn't really done anything else different so it's a good result from just 5:2.

I'm a member of a gym, currently only do pilates class once a week but hoping to increase my activity levels by swimming a couple of times a week.

Has anyone else found it more difficult to lose weight using this method when on medication too?

And any really tasty filling 500 cal dinner tips appreciated too! I gave read previous thread, so will work my way through this one too.

Congratulations on your SV, Lady
Good start
Some of that loss will be bodyfat
and If you have a lot of retained water it can cause high BP, so water loss is also a win

Welcome, coatless, Principle 🙂

coatless You could try just cutting down to NHS alcohol limits,
which works out at about a limit of 1 glass wine daily
and keep at least 2 days dry

The other most useful dietary change, to help lose weight and improve insulin metabolism is
No Snacking between meals

If you want treats, even "healthy" ones, also lattes and alcohol, then have them as part of a meal

Principle You are exactly right that we can no longer eat as in our teens & 20s, especially junk & booze
TDEE falls with age and insulin metabolism often worsens too, especially if pre-meno / meno have started, or meds

Yes, on any diet, certain meds can hinder progress, or when not on a diet can lead to weight gain
Double whammy: They increase appetite and also change insulin metabolism to store fat more than burning it

You can still lose fat, but need to be stricter and more patient than most folk
Exercise will boost loss and is excellent for health, but you also need to permanently change hat you eat & drink

As I posted earlier, men usually lose more quickly & easily on any diet - biology
So no surprise if your DH loses much more quickly

The OP has links to recipesunder "How to Start"
The BBC Good Food ones are especially tasty, e.g.

BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals
Vegetarian
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc

On FDs:

• Plan the menu in advance, the day before, so you are not hunting in the fridge
  Do NOT try to have zero-cal days, because it's not sustainable over the weeks and may lead to losing muscle

• Base each meal on a moderate portion of protein, plus masses of non-starchy veg, optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
  e.g. fish / prawns / eggs with salad or stirfry veg

• No alcohol or junk whatsoever, i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, crisps etc

• Don't snack or graze, eat preferably just lunch & supper, or supper - nothing between
  So black coffee / espresso / tea for breakfast, preferably without milk or sweetener

• Start the day with a glass of water and keep drinking

• To help avoid headaches while you adapt to fasting, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) - regard it as medicine, even if you hate it.
  It replenishes salt & other minerals, also boosts B vits

• Do NOT eat back any exercise calories on FDs

Not much chance of a siesta today - fallout still ongoing. Will finish early once we are fully back online and get a very early night / afternoon nap depending on how late it gets!

Can't guarantee I'll make good food choices today mind!

Welcome coatless and principle!

Thank you Bigchoc. I will have a good look at those links.

I have realised how little I drink on FDs. My liquid intake is usually around meal times and so when I'm not eating, I forget to drink! I need to work on that.

Very important to drink plenty of water, Principle, for weight loss and health
Especially on FDs
Get in the permanent habit of drinking a glass every couple of hours
keep a water bottle with you, like MrD now does

Sorry for slow replies. Welcome Tutti, Iceni, Lucky! Iceni, well done for managing a FD with all that stress going on around you - sounds tough! And Tutti, yes, the FDs definitely get easier. I started this WOE about 5 years ago and found the first few weeks so tough....all I could think about was good, all the time! And then suddenly it passed and I realised I could just sail through and barely feel hungry. Over 2.5 years I lost about a stone and then maintained really well. Stupidly i let some bad habits creep back in, which I didn’t notice on the scales because I was exercising regularly and still fasting. First the FDs and finally the exercise dropped, and guess what happened?! So now I’m back here, with a few lbs left to go and, more importantly, still retraining myself into good habits

MrD - hope you’re ok fasting on not much sleep. I always find that the hardest. Try to make the most of your quiet time, although I know what you mean about missing the dcs, especially when they’ve been particularly lovely!

BCF - has the weather stayed reasonable for you?

Sydney - I really feel for you: I’ve had a trapped nerve in my shoulder for the past 2 months and it’s been awful. Physio and (surprisingly) careful exercise have helped...it’s starting to improve finally and my phsyio said much the same as BigChoc, about needing to build up muscle to protect my back for the future (another excellent reason to get back to the gym....!!) But it must be so frustrating for you right now. Are there any exercises you can do from home that focus on lower back and legs, or abs and arms, that don’t trigger the pain? Hope you’re feeling better soon

Today is going to be carb tricky as I have a work breakfast meeting in my favourite bakery, plus am having a bagel lunch with someone else (I’m bringing the bagels from a proper bakery, he’s supplying smoked salmon and cream cheese!!) so I’ve got to be careful about overall TDEE. Fortunately dh is out this evening and I’ve got late boxing class, so I should be able to balance all that with a salad and some skyr for dinner. Scales were 9.10.4 this morning (mini woop...first time a 10 has figured after the 9 rather than before!) so I don’t want to lose all my FD gains

Hummus, 43, where are you??

Wishing all the Thursday fasters a super day! Good luck today Surprised

Well done on the 9s filly!

Hummus, 43, where are you??

I’m lurking quietly here . FD tomorrow ahead of a very social weekend.

Well done on your SV, filly
Your overall weight trend now is lower, despite blips

< waves to the quiet lurker in the 5:2 undergrowth >
Good luck on your Friday FD, Hummus
That's a good way to lead into the WE

I had an enjoyable sunny day on the river, but crossed off yet another gym < sigh >

The UNESCO heritage stretch of the Rhine has restrictions on new building, so not many gyms close by and they all seem to be on multiple floors,with stairs
(with my eyes & being a gym rat, I won't risk another pratfall, going up & down stairs umpteen times per day, 6 days per week)
I'll have to look outside the UNESCO bit, but still by a river

NFD today Filly, Fasting tomorrow as long as I get a good nights sleep!

Work seems to have settled down now so I'm crossing my fingers for a quiet night. In the mean time I admit to having got through the day with sugar and caffeine. Not great but needs must in an emergency! Will be heading to bed in half an hour or so 😴

Thanks for the advice all and well done on the 9 Filly! That's great!

Hope all the FDs have gone well.

Welcome Coatless and Principle I didn’t mean to ignore you - I wrote my previous post at 7am but for some reason it didn’t actually load until this evening! Anyway, welcome aboard!

Lucky - the headaches do settle, but I massively recommend lots of water and a teaspoon or two of marmite (yum....but I appreciate I may be in a minority...!). Makes a huge difference on FDs

Made it through today reasonably well: poached eggs &avocado on sourdough for breakfast (please note: no cake!), 1.5 bagels with cream cheese and smoked salmon for lunch, but again, no cake. No snacking all day, except for one square of chocolate (much needed) mid afternoon, dinner was a FD “emergency” meal (quorn lasagne) as it was past 10.30 and I needed something quick and easy...plus one third of the slice of cake I bought at the bakery this morning. Resisted both wine and chocolate The other 2/3rd are for dh and dc2 tomorrow. Despite being a little bit carb heavy, that doesn’t look too bad on MFP, so I’m hoping the scales will be kind tomorrow morning....

Aching from head to toe from my crazy boxing class tonight. May never be able to squat again

Fingers crossed you get some sleep tonight MrD and a good FD tomorrow

at lurking Hummus

BCF, I’m deeply amused and impressed by your commitment to the search for the perfect Rhine village with gym.....it’s got be out there somewhere!!