5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Made it through despite the cold and closing out the kitchen on a fairly respectable 450 cal. Made a big salad for dinner with 150g leftover roast chicken (no skin, no oil) and 1 very carefully measured spoon of dressing, and found that I didn’t even have room for the small jacket potato I was planning to have alongside it . Even made it to the gym! I think the cold is starting to lift, so fingers crossed I’ll feel better in the morning (& have a 9....!!!)

An excellent 1st FD, Iceni

Is your DH 5:2ing with you ?
Frustation warning:
on any diet, not just 5:2, the male OH usually lose more quickly - biology sucks !

and well done too, MrD, filly

Hi, Can I join you all?

I bought the Fast800 book a couple of weeks ago, and started my 800 cal journey today.

I'm currently in bed (no food up here! ), but I think I've had a relatively good first day.

I use MFP on and off if I need to drop half a stone or so for a holiday, and easily lost 1st last year over about 8 weeks, on about 1000-1200 calls/day.

Im a bit of a snacker and love my wine and G&Ts, and Haribo Jelly Babies. Dropping these alone for the next few weeks I'm sure will help, even if I do nothing else!

Hi all sounds like your all doing so well
Well done and good luck filly hope you feel better soon!
Still feeling bloated yesterday’s FD was hard & came in at 825 Cals..
I was so hungry after the excess of the weekend.
Haven’t managed to do a workout since last week either as I’ve pulled a muscle in my back
So today’s FD has to go well!
Good luck Tuesday fasters

Monday FD - no idea on calories but I ate nothing all day and a handful of leftovers in the evening so possibly about 420. Also my first really good nights sleep after a FD - I really think I’m settling into this.

Well done Mr D, Filly (so tough with a cold), Ice and Sydney. Great NSV Mr D.

Current mood: foolish. I couldn’t get to the gym for various frustrating reasons on Sunday so I ended up doing a Jillian Michaels 20 min session. And didn’t do any extra stretching after (just the 4 mins or so in the programme), stupidly thinking that 20 mins can’t possibky be enough to warrant my usual extended stretch down. WHAT HAS SHE DONE TO MY GLUTES?

Welcome, lucky

Yes, it really helps to drop the snacking habit permanently, both for weight loss and maintenance

Mosely strongly advises against snacking EVER, because even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised and hinder fat-burning
Even during maintenance, because the fat-burning periods between meals help keep you maintaining

On maintenance:

• No snacks ever - have any treats including alcohol or lattes as part of a meal,
  e.g. as pud, but not between meals

• keep within NHS alcohol limits, which is about 1 glass wine per day, with 2 or 3 dry days

Well done on your FD, onko
and on getting through a JM session

If you do this 3+ times per week, then soon you'll find you don't get muscle aches
So best medicine is to repeat it !

Well done on nailling a difficult FD, sydney

An over-indulgent NFD before the FD usually makes it tough
A hungover FD can be hellish

I recommend that from about 3pm the NFD before,
that people have at most 1 glass wine and avoid junk, e.g. no more than a taste of pizza, cake, biscuits, sweets etc

Aargh - DD has chicken pox and I am home in the house all day. It’s a NFD but the urge to pick is killing me and I was GUTTED to learn (from past threads) that my long-standing skinny latte habit is still snacking. I’m going to make a milky coffee instead.
Question BCF - roughly how much milk can I have in a coffee before it affects insulin? Is there any caffiene counterbalance effect or is that just about suppressing appetite? (Thanks in advance).

onko Yup, anything with calories between meals is a snack

During a long fast on FDs, for those who just have one meal, 40 cals of milk or anything else total during the fast is about the limit for women not to affect insulin
but on FDs I would do whatever works and not worry about this at all

However, on an NFD, you probably aren't really hungry - you're bored !
Have a long drink of sparkling water in a pretty glass, with ice & a slice

If you are actually hungry between NFD meals, then boost your meals

On NFDs, try to avoid milk - and sugar / sweeteners - in hot drinks, except at mealtimes
No, the caffeine won't help wrt insulin

If you are desperate for a milky coffee, then take that 40 cals as your total daily allowance (not including what you have at mealtimes, as that is not a snack)
Measure it out in advance for the day and put it in a little pot

You'll get more for your calories with almond or cashew milk, only about 13 cals per 100mml of unsweetened almond milk
(some brands are produced in Europe, with low environmental impact, if you are worried about that)

Thanks BCF.

It’s true I am a bit bored (or rather not occupied enough) but I also have a terrible habit of constant kitchen-bothering whenever home alone. Only time and will-power/motivation will sort that and hopefully the new knowledge that it is scientifically proven to lead to increased appetite (although I obviously knew this to be the case empirically).

I drink all types of non-sweet liquids all day long inc still and fizzy water, regular and herbal tea. A skinny latte is a mid-morning treat. I think you are right - keep them for breakfast or FDs and just have tea using milk allowance mid morning/afternoon.

Thanks for the great tips bigchoc failed fast day today
feeling sorry for myself with my back
going to try and get a massage tomorrow see if it helps as I’m seizing up.
And try a FD again tomorrow

Sydney FDs are not failed, merely postponed
That's one of the advantages of this WOE - flexibility about which days to diet

Sorry your back is so painful
I hope the massage helps

I had terrible back pain for years - probably screen work in both our cases
Nothing worked, until my gym recommended a chiropractor, who fixed it in 3 sessions
Nearly 30 later - my back is still fine

What has probably also helped to maintain a healthy spine is that I started lifting weights afterwards,
but your back needs to be ok again before you can do that

FD tomorrow. Dreading doing it at work as I start at 7. Have a pot of cottage cheese, oak cake, cherry tomatoes and celery to get me through lunch and salmon and courgetti for dinner.

NFD today and had breakfast at 0530 so ended up reaching for a banana at 10. Didnt do very well on the no snacking and consumed 360 calories on the banana, podded peas, tomatoes, 1 oat cake (checking to see if they were stale) and 2 biscuits.

Ice To stop NFD snacking, I recommend you plan your menu for the day before in advance, say at least 4 hours between meals

Have enough breakfast to keep you going until lunch

If you have to get up so early, then do you go to bed 2-3 hours earlier than most folk too ?
If so, just move your entire meal plan 2-3 hours, e.g lunch is at 10 am, tea at 2 pm, supper at 6 pm

Continual "picking" leaves you unsatisfied for the calories consumed:

"little pickers need bigger knickers"

Mosely and many other fasting experts recommend that a daily overnight fast of at least 12 hours
That's both for health and for weightloss

e.g. eating window between 8am and 8pm for most folk, say 6am to 6 pm for you

Thanks for the welcome. W1D2 today. I weighed myself this morning and am down 1.4kgs. How is that possible? Maybe I need new scales.

BigChoc you hit the nail on the head for me wrt snacking. I do it because I'm bored. I've been having water and green tea whenever I've felt the pangs.

Today has been a little bit tougher, as the DCs we're home today and walked round to the shops to get themselves a Haribo, Dorito and Fanta feast. Anyway, I stayed strong and had none of their booty.

Tonight will be a challenge because DP will be here and we like a nice dinner on a Tuesday night accompanied by some lovely wine. I'm making a really nice recipe I found on the Aldi website for cod with chorizo. I've made it before and it's fab. No white wine in the house to tempt me, but could maybe squeeze in a small red. 🍷

Well done on your SV, lucky
and on tackling the snack habit

A graph of loss on 5:2, with the FD / NFD intervals, looks like a zig-zag, but trending downwards

Your tum is empty after an FD, so don't worry if after 2-3 NFDs, you "regain" some of the FD loss - that's normal
So long as you are sensible on NFDs, you will lose over the weeks

Love these threads. Amazing to hear of so many success stories. I've been inspired to start 5:2 as a WOE and have just completed my third FD and so far down 2lbs 8oz.

I've been on a fitness regime for the last two months but seen no movement in the scales (not downwards anyway).

Height: 5' 8''
Weight: 11 4
Age: 40
BMI: 24
Body fat: 31%

Traditionally my happier weight is around 10st 4lb and I have rarely been over 11 stones in my life but currently seem stick here.

My FD yesterday I had a pot of Tesco's chunky minestrone soup at around 11am followed by a baked spice crusted chicken breast and lettuce at around 5pm.

This third FD definitely feels easier than the first two. Does it begin to feel easier eventually?

Welcome Tutti - it definitely gets easier, your body gets used to it and for me at least, my appetite has reset.

NFD here - got my meals planned with a focus on more fibre as it has been so good to me Eating a banana now for added goodness (counts as breakfast I guess as I don't really eat it.)

Struggling a bit this week - missing the kids who are on holiday with their dad. Not seeing many people so have felt a bit lonely. As a result I've booked a second day in head office tomorrow so I have some company.

MrD Focus on the strong new you, who is tough enough for anything
and on any big chores you've been meaning to do when you have free time

• it was a good idea to book extra work away.

Also, a good time for FDs, because you can fast exactly as you wish, without worrying about them observing this

Welcome Tutti
Yes, most people adapt to fasting within 2-3 weeks, so it gets easier

As we get older, our TDEE - the calories our body burns - will reduce, even if exercise stays the same
We can no longer get away with eating / drinking as we did in our teens or 20s
Also, insulin resistance tends to increase, which means less tolerance for junky treats & booze

This is particularly noticeable if you have entered pre-meno / meno, or have conditions like PCOS, thyroid etc, or have to take certain prescription meds

Well done on your exercise the last 2 months

Exercise is important for health,
BUT it doesn't lose weight unless you achieve a weekly calorie deficit
So most people, except for highly intense exercisers, also need to adjust their food & drink intake

Some kinds of exercise - especially long steady state, low / medium intensity sessions like long runs & swimming - can increase appetite

Very roughly, it takes a deficit of about 3,000 calories to lose 1lb, 7,000 to lose 1 kg

However, the type of calories - healthy / junky / boozy -
and their timing - avoid snacking between meals or very late eating -
also matter for most folk

MrD Dickheads continue to cause pain even after you've booted out their useless arse
Post here whenever you need a vent or a handhold

ah bless you Bigchoc - nah he's been fine for a while now, I could almost say we get on once more, obviously not really, but I have been able to be in his company for a couple of end of term school events without wanting to cry / stab him so progress!

Its just the flying solo I think - plus the kids are mostly really nice at the moment (except the nearly-teens hormones when they flare of course!) so I'm missing their company. My sis and her family are out seeing my parents in spain which has made me miss them a bit more too - but I'll be out there myself 2 weeks today.

Just had a delicious lunch of baked potato with left over chicken curry (with extra goodness in it - celery and spinach that I haven't bunged in before).

Casserole in the slow cooker for dinner, and am trying some pearl barley in it this time to help the fibre content - as well as the usual beef / celery / leek / chopped tomatoes / carrot /swede / kidney beans.... I suspect only small portions will be needed as it will be pretty filling! Looking forward to giving it a try for dinner.

Sounds delic, MrD and healthy, with a good amount of fibre for your tum

Tired today. Office day. Didnt sleep. Stressful as reorg and they want to stop WFH and I came on my period so in pain. But done FD. Felt giddy today and bad hunger pangs this afternoon.

Have 30 calories left and am hungry. Wonder what would be best to eat?

W1D3 Oh my god, my head hurts. I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the lack of sugar as I haven't had any since Sunday. Tell me this will pass.

Oh, poor Iceni 💐
Sounds a day from hell
I'm crossing my fingers for you that you can keep your WFH

You've done so well to manage the FD so far
Not long to go.

I recommend you use your remaining cals on some protein - don't worry if you go 50 over or whatever
e.g. slices of skinless chicken breast / boiled egg / tbsp natural Greek yoghurt or Skyr / 6-7 plain nuts....

Lucky To avoid headaches on FDs, glug 1 level teasp Marmite from the jar mid-morning & mid-afternoon
Even if you hate Marmite, regard it as medicine and glug it down

It is the best way to replenish slat & other minerals that are low while your body adapts to fasting - this is what causes headaches

Marmite also boosts B vits