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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2019 17:24

Welcome, ice 🙂
and good luck
Your plan sounds sensible

Good luck to us both, groovie

Walk / rum might have been more fun, but well done on your interval training

Exercise does become more enjoyable as you get fitter and able to do more
If you haven't trained much before, then the improvement is usually rapid, which is very motivating

I went out in the rain too, but it was cool enough to keep my T & shorts on
So, diplomatic incident avoided

OP posts:
GroovieGazelloo · 27/07/2019 19:05

So far so good here with my FD. Hope you're doing ok too Big Choc. Glad not to be reading about The Woman on The
I'm having to wait for our evening meal because my DH's back late. This is a difficulty that I need to overcome. Waiting in the evening - I feel the hunger and often throw caution to the wind. Then eat, just a bit too much to properly call it a FD. This time , I'm going to have lots of fizzy water whilst waiting so that I'm not over hungry...
May the force be with me. Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2019 07:47

I nailed my FD ok, Groovie
I hope your OH wasn't back too late
(Personally, when that happens I'd eat on my own, then clean my teeth to avoid being tempted to eat again when he eats)

I'm making it a b2b
Are you having a Sunday FD again, Hummus ?

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 28/07/2019 09:22

Well done bigchoc. Hope he was home soon groovie - I can't eat late (ever), I am always ready for a meal by 7pm or so.

Yes, FD here today. DH is taking the toddler out and I will be in the garden this morning so hopefully distracted. I've not meal planned well for today so will have to make do with what's in the fridge for lunch and dinner - probably some scrambled eggs, grilled broccoli and a few odds and ends.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2019 10:39

Good luck to us both, Hummus

I also dislike eating late, FD or NFD, so I finish by 8pm latest
I often eat 5-6PM, to lengthen the overnight fast, as I sometimes like breakfast

Also, as I have posted (nothing to do with 5:2):

Research has shown that longterm eating after 8pm significantly increases the risk of high BP, cvd, strokes, T2

more relevant to NFDs though, rather than an FD supper of say 300 cals
On NFDs, it significantly shortens the overnight fasting period, which may be a major cause of the longterm health risks

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 28/07/2019 10:46

Ah, I skipped that you were b2b-ing today! Good luck - I’ve never managed Saturday and Sunday.

OohMrDarcy · 28/07/2019 16:33

Afternoon all

Home from my camping break. Ate relatively well, only one day with 2 units of alcohol, a small amount of dark chocolate one day and an ice cream. Back to normal now and FDs are planned for the week alongside my meals. Just me at home so should be relatively easy as long as I keep busy.

Off to check back on what I have missed

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2019 17:30

Sounds a fun but very sensible break, MrD

Not as impressive as it sounds, hummus
I do miniFD b2bs
tbh, even in the weight loss phase, I only did miniFDs, not FDs

  • it worked for me, probably as I'm a gym rat and also never snack
OP posts:
GroovieGazelloo · 28/07/2019 18:25

Hi all,
interesting research Big Choc. Thanks. However, I live in France and people work later so it's often not possible to eat until after 8pm/9pm. The evening meals are usually light though.
Today decided to do a B2B after seeing your suggestion.
Plus, went out for an hour long run and not particularly hungry after. Very odd. Shock

EssentialHummus · 28/07/2019 19:37

How are you getting on bigchoc and groovie?

Kitchen closed here, bar a coffee possibly. Coffee in the morning with a little semi-skimmed milk, lunch was a scrambled egg (in the microwave, so no oil) and a salad of tomato, cucumber, onion and home-grown Greek basil. Dinner was broccoli stir-fried with chillies from the garden and some curry powder. I wildly underestimated the heat - lucky I can handle spice! And some unconventional interval training just now, in the form of multiple laps up and down to the garden to chase away a fox Grin.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2019 20:21

Good luck on your b2b, Groovie

Exercise often reduces appetite for a couple of hours or more afterwards.

This is more the case for vigorous exercise, which more readily accesses the body's fat stores for fuel
rather than less intense steady state exercise, which uses mostly glycogen (carb) stores and may not be able to access them sufficiently.

The traditional French diet is quite healthy, so that would help offset a late supper, especially if it's normally a light one and not boozy or sugary

Well done on a v healthy FD, Hummus

I thought when you mentioned super-charged spice and then interval training
that you were going to tell us about running up & down stairs to the loo Grin !

I've finished my b2b too

I had a lovely afternoon Rhine walk in the blissful cool, then a short weights session in the gym and later a short evening walk.

I feel drained after the weeklong 40C, even though I cut back on the usual training, drank 3 litres water & plenty of electrolytes daily.
Maybe because the barometer has changed a lot and we are expecting violent storms - and warmish rain

So early night tonight and off to bed soon (9:20 pm here)
< zzzzz >

OP posts:
onko · 28/07/2019 22:32

Had a good weekend coming under TDEE, v low alcohol consumption and some exercise. Less good on the snacking front (I am an appalling picker when I’m at home). Well done to BCF, Hummus, Groovie and other weekend fasters - I’m on for a (hopefully) regular Monday FD; anyone else?
Happy birthday Sydney, have a great day.

onko · 28/07/2019 22:56

Oh and I discovered courgetti this weekend. How have I not discovered this before? It felt like such abject indulgence scoffing a huge portion of super-rich winey bolognese sauce bulked out by 2 courgettes, all for about 500 cals.
I was about to brag about being the only person in Islington without a spiraliser until I realised that I had made the courgetti using a mandolin....Blush

SoSydney · 29/07/2019 03:07

Hi all

Back to fasting today had a fab long birthday weekend of lunches dinners drinks and whale watching
Feeling it today tho...
so I’m fasting for the next couple of days to help feel normal again fingers crossed.

Seems your having the Oz weather in England yay
Good luck all Monday fasters

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2019 07:04

Mornng and good luck to all the Monday fasters Smile

Happy birthday for last weekend, Sydney 💐
Sounds a fabulous 50th

Well done on your weekend, onko
That's very useful you've discovered courgetti and rediscovered your mandolin

Your snacking is a work in progress Wink but zapping the habit can really help loss

OP posts:
IceniSky · 29/07/2019 08:42

First fast day today. Weighed myself this morning and have gained another 2 pounds dispite eating healthy all week. Does age related weight gain really happen so fast?

GroovieGazelloo · 29/07/2019 09:40

All the best for your Monday fast Ice, Sydney and Onko. Happy 50th too Sydney.
Wishing you luck with your new anti-snacking habit too Onko. ( going to have to look up "mandolin" as I see you scraping courgettes with a musical instrument Shock)
Interesting sport Hummus- fox intervals ! Grin
Sounds a great day yesterday Big Choc. And well done on the B2B. Mine went well too. This week I'll be away with the family and I'm not sure how to fit in 2 FDs ...
One thing though, I really do want to keep my running in. Fortunately I've brought one of my dogs so she's going to be part of my escape plan. 😎
The temperatures have become more reasonable here too so it's possible to begin go about things more calmly which is lovely.

GroovieGazelloo · 29/07/2019 09:46

Ice, realising that my weight is made up of developing muscle, excess water and uneliminated roughage as well as fat, helps me to be patient and more loving with my body and her ups and downs. Hope you enjoy the start of your fast day. Smile

GroovieGazelloo · 29/07/2019 09:53

" vigorous exercise, which more readily accesses the body's fat stores for fuel rather than less intense steady state exercise, which uses mostly glycogen (carb) stores and may not be able to access them sufficiently."

Very interesting Big Choc. Thanks. It's strange because yesterday I hardly felt hungry at all despite being on the second day of my B2B and having done a long run. Today though, I'm having an exercise break and I'm ravenous. 😅

I think I might need more willpower to carry me through today than I expected. 🤨

OohMrDarcy · 29/07/2019 09:53

Morning all

Fasting today here. Busy day at head office tomorrow so decided to move it to be sensible. On the good side, tomorrow will have a beef casserole in the slow cooker all day so no knackered crap eating when I get home!

Welcome to the newbies

Lots of lovely exercise and healthy fasting going on I see!

43 - glad to see things are settling down for you!

oh - and I know I've been battling against a plateau recently, but it is like my body is changing to catch up - my legs are shrinking and my new size 16 shorts are starting to get loose already! Grin

Fillybuster · 29/07/2019 10:54

Well done on all the weekend FDs, Hummus, BigChoc and Groovie - very impressive.

Glad the camping went well, MrD, and sounds like you exercised great self control!

Happy birthday Sydney - I hope it was all utterly fab!!

I woke up on Friday morning with an absolute stinker of a cold, ended up skipping both riding and the gym, and over-carbed, and have been feeling lousy and miserable all weekend. Felt far too ill to make it to either of my gym classes yesterday either, and gave in to some less than great food choices as I was stuck at home. Unsurprisingly the scales started with a 10 today....annoying as it’s been over a week of 9s, but hopefully I’ll manage a FD today and shift them back over the line.

Unusually, I’m dreading today’s FD: I find it really hard when I’ve got a heavy cold, and I’ve got a whole day workshop out of the office, which will definitely have snacks laid on....wish me luck!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2019 11:41

Good luck on your 1st FD, Ice

Healthy eating is a good first step, but it may be that your portion size is out of whack with what your body burns.

Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

See how you progress like this for the first 2-3 weeks of 5:2 and then tweak if necessary

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2019 11:58

Good luck too, groovie, MrD, filly

I hope your cold gets better soon, filly Thanks

If you are feeling grotty, you can always turn it into a miniFD (800-1000 calories) by increasing healthy options like soup or having a little pasta with veg, that is soft on your throat

  • but do avoid junky buffet options or wine, even small tasters
Support your immune system with healthy choices

Groovie HIIT is good on FDs, for fat-burning, fitness and managing hunger

I recommend you try interval sprints, in whatever interval pattern suits
e.g. a few sets of
100% sprint for 1 minute + recovery jog / walk for 1 minute + sprint + recovery + .....

Well done on a Loose Shorts / Shrinking Bod NSV, MrD
I hope you aren't too fond of those shorts - better wear them now before they start falling down !

That's lost inches & bodyfat, which is more important than how quickly the scales move - they will catch up eventally

iirc, you don't technically have a plateau, since you are still losing slowly

Getting rid of your constipation would help - how's the progrss there ?

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 29/07/2019 19:14

Constipation gone bigchoc - keeping an eye on fibre intake and being sure to up it in little ways every day when I can.

You are right that I had lost very slowly rather than stopping so not technically a plateau... we shall see where the coming weeks take me!

Not exactly a nailed FD as accidentally ate a club biscuit this morning before remembering I was fasting, however I have come in around 600 still so not a failed one by any means.

IceniSky · 29/07/2019 20:01

Only done 3000 steps as working, and cant be bothered to go for a walk now as up at 5. So exercise bad. Didnt make run as too hot at lunch time.

On 492 calories but think will have a marmite drink as very hungry after my first FD. Had 1 poached egg with spinach, mushroom and tomato for lunch, and chickpea curry with a spoonful of brown rice and iceberg lettuce for dinner. Then a pot of 5cal jelly.

Eying up the bagels for breakfast tomorrow, which I would normally skip.

DH joined me and had a few low fat sausages with lunch and an extra celery stick Grin. He has a fair bit to loose.

May batch cook some 350 cal meals to freeze.