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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
nolongersurprised · 18/07/2019 11:35

ginger I am alone among the fasters in that I do like rice on a FD but only brown rice and combined with some protein. I’ll agree with other posters about breakfast though, try to stick to just protein, carbs will make you feel hungrier. Eggs are good.

I did a b2b yesterday - woke up feeling good so decided to get it out of the day - and it wasn’t too bad. I faded a bit mid afternoon but a heap of vegemite on half a cracker (couldn’t bring myself to eat it from a spoon) and some 20cal miso soup fixed it.

After 7 weeks of weighing 63 something kg (including 3 weeks of school holidays where FDs weren’t great) I’m down 300g to 62.7 so I’ve started losing again, 62 should be as low as I go though. In spite of the lack of weight loss over those 7 weeks my body seems to have regrouped, the skin around my stomach has firmed up and things don’t feel as squishy which is pretty awesome at 45 and after 4 kids.

Good luck to the fasters!

OohMrDarcy · 18/07/2019 11:52

Thanks BigChoc - will hunt some out after payday and give it a go!

Surprised - well done on the SV!

Bogiesaremyonlyfriend · 18/07/2019 12:37

Hi, welcome petal.

I'm on a nfd today but doing a 4:3 this week as I seem to be really struggling to loose anything and keep it off scales said I'd lost 4lbs last week then over the weekend even though I was under 1200 cals and very active, scales said it was all back on. So thought I'd try 4:3 and see if that helps. I've had 2 fast days this week and another planned for tomorrow. So fingers crossed

Well done to those who have lost this week!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 15:21

Great body NSV, surprised

bogies I'd recommend sticking to 5:2 for 3 weeks before making changes

  • that's what the professionals say re any dietary or exercise changes.
Give it a chance to work

Your body is not a computer, that behaves the same if you feed in the same calories.
Weight can vary from day to day, even when you are not on a diet:
undigested food,
retained water from junkier food / alcohol or muscle recovery,
hormonal swings etc

Best to monitor weight weekly, 1st thing in the morning after FD2, so after loo, but before eating / drinking anything
Even then, look at the trend over the last 2-3 weeks

(I know some folk like to weigh daily, which is ok, but don't let daily fluctuations do your head in)

Also, if you move the scales, or have them on carpet, or lean to the side, or jump onto them too soon etc
.... then that interferes with the readings

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 18/07/2019 16:46

Welcome Petal & welcome back Cuttlefish

Well done Surprised, both on the loss but more on the overall toning etc. I’m also 45 (but only 3dcs!) and I’m targeting exactly the same point - approx 9st 7lbs. I’ve got back into going to the gym for the first time in 3 years and trying to get healthier & more toned at the same time at working on the weight. Good luck on the last kilo!

Checking in v late for a FD. Two NFDs in a row and scales still began with a 9 this morning (9.13.4) so quietly pleased with progress. I was a total swot and stuck to water at the post-workshop drinks last night and left early to get to my gym class, although I did buckle and have 2 deep fried halloumi sticks. That said, they were absolutely delicious and I managed to stop at 2!!Grin

Scary HIIT boxing class at the gym this evening and then either bbq stew or veg tagine with cauli rice. I’ll have earned it!

Ginger1982 · 18/07/2019 17:06

FD again.

Tea for breakfast.
Scrambled egg for lunch.
Thinking soup and a slice of bread for dinner.
Haven't actually been counting the calories today if I'm honest. Keep thinking I would have 'enough' for a packet of crisps later but I know that's not the right mindset!

Tomorrow is takeaway night so I need to stay strong today! 😆

aberjenagain · 18/07/2019 17:37

Poking my head back in the door. Have been on here as aberjen and jengles previously (I think...) Restarting 5:2 after several false starts and also piling back on all of the weight I successfully lost 3 years ago (bigchoc’s advice above re having a maintenance plan in place well and truly noted!!). Getting to the end of 2nd week back on it (FD today) and getting back in the groove. Have just had sausage and lentil casserole to break my fast - much needed and definitely before my late client call at 6. Do NOT want to do that hangry...!

Good luck to the fellow Thursday fasters - nearly there!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 17:44

Good luck, filly, ginger, aber

Welcome back, aber
Yep, any weight loss method, whether 5:2 or a big-standard mfp diet, needs a maintenance plan

Your old WOE is what put on the weight originally, so you know that doesn't work

OP posts:
Bogiesaremyonlyfriend · 18/07/2019 18:00

I'll keep trying 5:2 for another week then to see what happens. I have a tendency to be very impatient! I want the scales to reveal big losses everyday to keep me motivated!! Is that hoping for too much!!??

Fillybuster · 18/07/2019 19:05

Bogies - I think the key here is that this is a long term woe, not a diet plan. In some (possibly many) ways the weight loss is incidental compared to the other benefits, but however you look at it, this doesn’t deliver massive overnight changes. The ones that do that are diets and generally not sustainable. So 5:2 can be quite a slow burn, especially at the beginning as you adjust, and I’d say you definitely need patience and the right mindset. On the plus side, there’s far more chance of keeping any weight loss off for the long term. In my experience, once the weight does start dropping you might see some quite steep losses followed by a lengthy plateau....you’ve got to keep the faith! GrinFlowers

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 20:44

Patience, bogies 😂
If you didn't put that weight on in just a few weeks, it'll take longer than a few weeks to lose

A graph of loss on 5:2 is usually a zig-zag, trending downwards

What can make a big difference to rate of loss:

keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
Bogiesaremyonlyfriend · 18/07/2019 20:48

Haha I'll keep at it! Thanks for the support Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 20:49

Mosely has a very quick VLCD:
Fast800
which is 800 calories, all low carb, every day for up to 8 weeks, or until goal

However, it is very tough to stick to
and like all VLCDs, it's only a short term WOE
It doesn't teach you how to eat longterm

One advantage of 5:2 is that the NFDs help retrain your "normal" to what your body burns and helps create healthier habits
This helps avoid regain after you reach goal

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 18/07/2019 21:03

Thanks bigchoc. My biggest downfalls are (1) stress and boredom eating, usually when in the office and I don’t want to work on something but I HAVE to work on something, and (2) losing track on NFDs. No. 2 is more straightforward to address - I mfp religiously to make me more mindful of what I’m eating and when - but I’m grateful for any advice people have re: no. 1...

onko · 18/07/2019 21:32

I’m laughing at not wanting to work on something but HAVING to...I had exactly that today - a deadline for a paper and no meetings but I really DID NOT WANT to do it at all.

It actually got me through my FD though - I saw the whole day as some kind of grim penance. And luckily i wasn’t in my normal ‘treats in the usual place’ office so didn’t get tempted.

I will also struggle with slow weight loss but I am trying to snap out of a lifetime of yo-yoing so I’m attempting to retrain myself to see this as a big opportunity for change rather than a means to an end. Using MFP and coming on here to hold myself to account for my goals are two things I have never done before which I am hoping will make a big difference. Will be interested to see if I use MFP if (when) I have a fail day....

Finished the day on 376 kcal (nothing but tea until 8.30pm then a smallish chicken breast with a TON of veg).

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 22:00

Well done on a healthy FD, onko

aber re 1) I can only advise that you take just the food you plan to eat
It can help to plan your NFD menu roughly in advance the day before, then absolutely no digression

A rigid rule "NO snacking ever" helps, because once you get out of the snacking habit, you just eat planned meals every day

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 18/07/2019 22:33

Closing out a good FD on 383. Managed to stare down the millionaire caramel chocolate bites and croissants at this mornings meeting and convince myself that what I really really wanted was a cup of herbal tea instead Shock. Crazy afternoon so no time for anything other than water, followed by a colleague’s leaving drinks (sparkling water dressed up to look like a g&t!) and crazy boxing class. Forgot the marmite and got awful cramps but worth it. Still have to make bread and walk the dog, but first a cup mint tea and one square of dark choc. Night all! And good luck to the Friday Fasters Smile

SoSydney · 19/07/2019 02:48

Hi all Friday here FD for me hoping to get a good one in lots of herbal tea and I fancy eggs so maybe a chicken bacon and egg spinach salad for dinner
I have a weekend of no socials planned (saving myself & cash for birthday weekend next week) so fingers crossed for a scale drop this week
Good luck all Friday fasters

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2019 06:38

Well done on a good FD, filly

Good luck, sydney and any other Friday fasters

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 19/07/2019 07:09

Good luck sydney. FD today for me too.

OohMrDarcy · 19/07/2019 09:12

Morning all

Friday FD here I come!

Filly it sounds like you've really found a way to find some balance with all your social stuff this week so you're still managing a loss, well done!

Cooking a chilli today, so I'll have mine with a small amount of rice / sour cream and no tortillas.

Ginger1982 · 19/07/2019 09:31

Ooft, managed to stick to plan yesterday though I did have one plain digestive at supper time with my cup of tea. Pleased to have got through week one and hoping not to blow it too much until next week.

Good luck to today's fasters 👍🏻

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2019 11:35

Well done on a good 1st week, ginger

Good luck, MrD, hummus

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 19/07/2019 16:33

Kitchen closed on 468. Changed my mind a bit had a decent portion of chilli and grated some cheese on top instead of rice.

Was delicious and I'm stuffed.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2019 16:49

Well done, MrD
That's good it was filling

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