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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
nolongersurprised · 16/07/2019 10:46

Nearly there, surprised
You are doing very well

In general I think I’m lucky in that this WOE seems to suit me. I never thought I’d be able to calorie restrict because I’ve been dizzy and nauseous from lack of food before. However it would only happen if I was unwell, pregnant or under physiological stress like working overnight and usually on a day when I’d eaten sweets or too many carbs. It just hasn’t happened on 8 months of 5:2. I suspect 5:2 has helped to regulate my insulin levels and I feel better for it. Plus, I hated the weight creep of the last few years and I’m so grateful it’s come off with what overall has been little effort and no real sense of deprivation.

I am in awe of those posters like MrD who have lost life-changing amounts though.

nolongersurprised · 16/07/2019 11:05

sydney normally I crave sweets at TOTM as well and I don’t really have a huge sweet tooth normally. The last time it came on a FD I had to add some dark chocolate to my day!

Good luck to the fasters in the northern hemisphere!

Ginger1982 · 16/07/2019 17:25

I'm hungry! 😆

Slice of toast and Dairylea for breakfast. Didn't touch the toast or biscuits at toddler group, didn't eat anything at softplay. Had a Slim A Soup when I got home. Packet of Super rice for tea and then will have some calories left over for supper time.

It's not easy!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2019 20:23

It's good to hear you are finding the WOE suits you, surprised

Fasting can help issues of insulin metabolism.
FDs, since they are without junk or alcohol, provide enough protein & vitamins for your body,

  • v different from your previous experiences of overnight work fuelled by sweets

ginger That's a rather carb-heavy menu for an FD, which would make you hungrier

I recommend for the next FD that you base meals on protein and veg, so you feel a bit fuller
E.g.
B: 1 egg veg omelette, no toast
L: chicken & veg soup, no bread, no crackers etc
S: salad dressed with balsamic vinegar, with prawns / salmon / tuna (canned in brine not oil) / ....

Most of us just have black coffee for breakfast, which would give you calories for a wholemeal roll with lunch and a dash of olive oil with supper

OP posts:
Ginger1982 · 16/07/2019 21:58

Unfortunately I don't drink coffee. I suppose I could just have a cup of tea.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2019 23:15

Yup, have a cuppa, even Bovril (it's only 10 cals a mug)

OP posts:
SoSydney · 17/07/2019 01:23

It was MazDazzle and filling will definitely have it again

nolongersurprised I might try keeping squares of dark choc in my freezer as I’d eat the lot chocolate is definitely one of my trigger foods.

I’m also going to try the marmite tip (called my mate over here!) after bigchocs recommendation the other day

Good luck all fasters today
I may squeeze another in before weekend if the week goes well

OohMrDarcy · 17/07/2019 09:14

Morning all

forgot to post to say FD completed successfully yesterday.

NFD today and we have cottage pie for dinner so I have the mince bit of that cooking away in the slow cooker for the day - makes it less work in the evening when I get more tired. That slow cooker has saved the day many a time!

Surprised that is very sweet of you - but remember there is no awe in me putting that weight on in the first place Wink It does feel nice that my story has helped some people though.

I've run out of leftovers in my lunch stash Shock so going to make a sandwich or salad today depending on how hungry I am!

Ginger - I completely agree with BigChoc - very carb heavy day for a FD ... no wonder you were hungry. I stick to protein / veg really on a FD. Can eat so much more and feel fuller too. I rarely drink coffee so have tea morning and evening and save 80% + of my cals for lunch or split lunch and dinner depending on my plans / hunger levels. I drink loads of water in the day and a cup of tea if I do feel the hunger strike.
example meals if it is of help include an omelette, chicken salad, chicken / prawns and veggies, beef casserole (kids have with a carb side, I have on its own) etc etc.

Fillybuster · 17/07/2019 14:21

Don’t dismiss your achievements MrD - it’s taken a lot of grit & determination for you to achieve those losses!

I was really anxious about my NFD yesterday: they’ve generally been my downfall and I knew I had to get through a few things. Despite sandwiches, pretzels and hummus for lunch and a proper (planned!!) dinner with one glass of wine and small-but-calorie-dense dessert with dh, the scales were actually slightly down this morning (9.12.8 Shock).
I was half thinking about making today a FD as in an all day workshop and was anticipating beige food for lunch. But was so so hungry by lunchtime (2 FDs followed by one NFD clearly had an impact!) that when they told me they had taken on board my request for a vegetarian bread-free meal, and then produced an amazing looking wild rice, roast veg & avocado salad, my willpower crumbled. Sadly I suspect the quantity of olive oil negates the salad-ness of the food. But I’m swerving biscuits, cake and fruit, then skipping the drinks reception to get to my gym class, and will do a super healthy dinner (planning it now) so hopefully not too bad. FD #3 tomorrow.

Good luck to everyone fasting today Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2019 16:38

Lunch sounds delic & healthy, filly lots of nutrients for your bod

It's usually the fancy pud, cake, bicuits, wine that add up more than you think - and they are empty calories, without benefit.

small tweak re yesterday:
for crunchy veg accompaniments to a sandwich, or have an apple, rather than additional starches like petzels

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2019 16:40

Well done on your FD, MrD
Water is now firmly ingrained again as one of your good habits

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 17/07/2019 16:41

Quite right about the pretzels BigChoc! They were part of my contribution to dd’s class picnic...I just partook slightly! I also took a punnet of blueberries along and forced myself to move onto those after a bit Grin

Fillybuster · 17/07/2019 16:43

Oh, and yesterday was my first NFD with absolutely no snacking! I ate my lunch at the picnic, dinner with dh, and nothing at all in between

OohMrDarcy · 17/07/2019 17:11

Filly you are really working to keep those scales moving now, keep going, its working!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2019 19:58

Well done on the No Snacking, Filly
An important NSV
You are really working hard and it paid off with your 9s milestone

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 17/07/2019 21:48

Ok BigChoc,

I'm hoping for some of your wisdom please! I am looking at my fibre intake... I seem to have been permanently constipated for months... take a sense type tablet once a week to keep things moving, I am eating healthier and more veg than I ever have before as an adult, have always learned slightly towards constipation occasionally but never for this long.

This is not helped by me being fussy with some foods! I really don't like nuts / seeds / beans!

However we eat only wholemeal bread, wholewheat pasta and plenty of different t types of veg... been paying attention to my fiber intake on myfitnesspal- I know it will be a bit out as my veg is always a vague guess on there... but today I've only managed 16g of the recommended 30!

Going to play closer attention for a week or two to the amounts of veg I'm putting on there but any ideas gratefully received!!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2019 23:28

MrD Constipation:
It's great that you are drinking more water on 5:2 - it's the best way to help
Aim for at least 2litres daily, to help flush it all down

NFD Recipe when you get bunged up:

  • 1 tbsp olive oil
  • 1 teasp lemon juice
Best to take on an empty tum, so early morning or a few hrs after eating and don't eat for at least 30 minutes afterwards

Taking fibre supplements - unless prescribed by a doctor - may actually bung you up further
I've advised people on these threads to try without the supplement and it has usually helped a lot

Instead, keep fibre intake natural, via food

It's a shame you don't like beans, nuts, seeds - beans are the first things I'd recommend Grin - but don't worry, plenty of other foods to help constipation:

  • porridge oats
  • prunes
  • apple, pear, kiwi
  • Add 1 tbsp (no more) of chia seeds or flaxmeal to yoghurt or porrridge - drink plenty of water with this
  • peas, lentils
  • mixed salad as often as poss
  • spinach, broccoli, most green veg
  • have your potato with skins, e.g. baked potato, or baked wedges with skin
  • natural yoghurt
  • clear soups, broth

Foods to AVOID:

  • unripe banana (ripe ones can help some people, but make other folk worse)
  • very fatty food, fried or fast food, crisps etc
  • alcohol

Note:
sometimes increasing fibre can actually worsen the problem, if you are already getting too much,
so if your usual intake is medium to high, say 35g+, you could try reducing bread, pasta, bran, cereals, popcorn etc - but not veg

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2019 23:34

Exercise also helps
Walking is great
Also bodyweight squats and lifting weights - weightlifters are rarely constipated

OP posts:
petal2019 · 18/07/2019 05:43

Hello! Id like to join...look forward to reading your ideas and tips.

onko · 18/07/2019 07:15

Checking in for a FD

OohMrDarcy · 18/07/2019 07:39

Welcome petal!

Thanks bigchoc,

Indefinitely get enough water - 2-2.5 litres generally plus at least one cup of decaf tea, normally more Grin

Activity wise, I am also far more active than I have been for years. Got 10,000 steps without even trying yesterday for eg.

Flaxseed is something I meant to try (and forgot!) So will get some of that. My daughter loves cashews and almonds so I think I'm going to have to get in the habit of forcing myself to eat a small handful a few times a week - one day I might even get used to them Envy

I do eat kidney beans occasionally now, half a tin goes in a cottage pie / chilli.

Will give your medicine a go but sounds awful Grin will be worth it if it works of course! Definitely not getting too much fibre! 🤣

Thanks again

OohMrDarcy · 18/07/2019 07:40

NFD here and our busy day too.

Good luck onko

seizethecuttlefish · 18/07/2019 08:50

Saying hi. I've been quietly gaining back my weight loss for a year and today decided to get back on it! So FD today. Upping my fluids and trying to move more.

OohMrDarcy · 18/07/2019 10:13

hey cuttlefish - welcome back and good luck for today!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2019 11:11

Welcome, petal Smile
Lots of info & tips in the OP, especially under "How to start", but post whenever you need advice or support

Good luck, Onko and any other Thursday fasters

MrD Flaxmeal is an alternative to flaxseeds, to sneak into porridge, homemade savoury muffins etc
Any healthfood shop and some supermarkets will have flaxmeal - basically ground flaxseeds
Both of them are high fibre, good for the tum and also packed with nutrients

Welcome back, cuttlefish and good luck

This time when you get to goal, I recommend a definite IF maintenance plan - lots to choose from
Almost everyone needs a plan, because

"If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist"

OP posts:
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