5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Hi all, I'm thinking of joining you, if that's ok. Did 5:2 last year and lost a stone, then somehow lost momentum. But now I can't quite make up my mind between 5:2 where you can eat any sorts of food in small amounts, or low carb where you don't have to count calories and can eat bigger quantities of a limited range of things. Help
can anyone offer any words of wisdom? Started the day planning on low carb, then desperately wanted to eat some fruit, and thought I'll change to 5:2! Aaaarghhhhh.

northshore Weight loss depends mostly on achieving a calorie deficit.

Some people have insulin resistance or are preT2/T2 and they need to cut carbs as well, to lose

Some folk find they need to combine low carb with 5:2 to lose

For most, the best diet depends on your personal preferences of how to achieve that calorie deficit,
whether you prefer to diet very strictly on 2 days, or less strictly on 7

5:2

• has 2 "diet days" of 500 calories (600-800 for men or tall & active / heavy women), on which all junk food and alcohol is also banned
• 5 "maintenance days" on which you eat & drink normally, but reasonably sensibly

low carb

• bans added sugar and starchy carbs, also limits fruit, milk, yoghurt, alcohol
• no calorie counting

Morning all

Another slightly frustrating weigh in this morning showing a loss of 0.4lb creeping my total loss up to 3st 4lb.

Still, I'm happy its going in the right direction, and I'm managing to stave off a complete plateau! On the good side, it hasn't affected my mood or feeling Gs about 5:2 at all.

One thought re our constipation chat, I'm not sure if that is the right word for what is going on! Maybe slow digestion is better? It isn't getting to the point of any urge at all, must all be sat in my intestines. A weeks worth of food now - bleurgh!

Welcome north bigchoc is a font of information and can help you!

MrD (I am not a doctor but) the two frustrations you must in some way be connected? Those scales will surely be beckoning once you have a massive........er....clearout?
Great to hear its not affecting your resolution.

NSV for me yesterday - stayed within TDEE despite a massive night out and eating pasta with chorizo

MrD It's still an SV, moving (!) in the right direction in one sense

re the other, if it's been a week, have you tried my constipation recipe ?
If not, I recommend it, for today+tomorrow

and if that doesn't work, then do ask your GP Monday for help - it needs sorting

odlo is right wrt weight - you've probably got an SV-in-waiting

Or ask your local chemist for something to move things along

I did try it, awful stuff 🤣 I'm focusing on trying to increase my fiber bit by bit... have forced myself to eat a small breakfast today of half a banana and 5 strawberries ... today's planned meals show as 20g of fiber.

If still no movement by monday I'll make a call as to whether to hit the pharmacy or docs.

Oh mrd, hope it resolves soon - not sure if it is too simple a suggestion but two strong coffees early in the morning help when I am constipated. And yes, almost certainly masking some weight loss there.

FD yesterday was fine - probably more like a mini with a lunch of bean salad with broccoli and dinner of chicken with salad, with coffees through the day.

Thanks Hummus,

I don't normally drink caffeine, but am debating allowing one a day to help get things going again! Have been caffeine free 90% of the time for around 6 years now I think ? Only have it if I'm out and decaf not available.

MrD Regard it as medicine - not supposed to be nice !

Your water glugging is a great habit, but I do advise asking the chemist if no big movement by Monday - it's the sort of minor thing they are good at advising on.

The daily fibre target for health is 35g
So sounds like you have been only getting half your recommended fibre for many years, which would explain the history

However, building up gradually is always best, as you are doing today

• Oat bran or All-Bran is good choice for future breakfasts, with prunes (canned in juice, not syrup)
• Mixed green salad, with added celery and carrot too, for lunch say
• Then for dinner, do try to build in beans, lentils, peas to your stews, chilli etc - with sides of kale, broccoli
• Seeds are a good pud for fibre and a daily tbsp of chia seeds in say yoghurt adds a lot of soluble fibre, to help constipation

It wouldn't hurt to try 1 black coffee today & tomorrow - but before 3pm if you aren't used to the high caffeine

bigchoc's post just reminded me of another idea - you can buy prune juice in the larger supermarkets (in mine it is in the aisle with cartons of orange/apple juice and bottles of cola) - helps with softening stools.

Or just get tins of prunes in juice

Hello All,
Not been here for a while. My work commitments took me away from home and sometimes I could put in FD, sometimes I found it too difficult. I decided that I was at a comfortable weight and that I'd stick at it for a while. Again, my work commitments meant that I did a lot more walking than when I was last on. That has helped me to keep my weight fairly stable and also, probably more importantly for me, I've enjoyed doing exercise.
So, now I'm ready for the next stage of shaping up my body. I'm going to combine my exercise with 5:2. Today is FD1 for me and I'll do the 2nd early next week.
Good to read you all here.Hope that you're feeling ok now Mr.D ( that happened to me once when I started low carbing. In fact, I found I started going less and just accepted it.)
Waves to BCF and all other fasters too. 👋

Welcome back, groovie and good luck with stage 2
Well done for maintaining in the meantime

So post from a Mumsnet lurker here! I'm fast approaching the big 50 and have had my normally active lifestyle knocked on the head for the past few months after a stupid (sober!!) foot injury, so maybe now is the time to throw myself int this WOE. Months of sitting on my (rapidly expanding) backside means weight gain and I've been reading these posts for inspiration - so fingers crossed, 5 weeks isn't leaving it late to rescue my usual wardrobe surely :)

Thanks for the tips all, read too late for coffee today but I'll have one tomorrow morning and bear the other tips in mind too! I'll get things going again

Welcome, 214 🙂
Sorry to hear about your accident 💐
Yes, with an injury restricting exercise and probably with menopause lurking, now is a really good time for you to start 5:2

I've been there:
I'm post-meno and a longtime 5:2 maintainer, but I also had to review my eating last year after a (sober) accident & ankle injury curtailed my gym rat & cycling lifestyle

• my visual disability caused me to fall the last few steps on restaurant stairs, tearing right through 1 ligament and partly tearing the others

I recommend you work on your abs and do upper body weights, while your foot heals, to maintain some fitness and tone
e.g.

• situps, straight & angled
• bench press, tricep press, seated shoulder press, front raise, side raise, bicep curls

Well, I managed a 50 minute Rhine walk and 30 minutes lifting at the gym this morning, plus afternoon spin
despite it hitting 33C here
< wipes sweat off thread >

39C next week, so I'm planning a day cruise on Monday along the UNESCO world heritage stretch of the Rhine, watching all the castles and vineyards go by as I sip iced water

It'll be an gastronomic adventure too, hence an FD tomorrow
Hummus You often do Sunday FDs too, iirc ?

That sounds like a great plan for such a hot day bigchoc! Yes, I'll be fasting with you tomorrow.

Monday and Tuesday predicted to be quite hot in London too so I have invited all the local toddlers to come round and dip in our paddling pool. Not nearly as exciting but a nice way to ride out the weather here.

Welcome 214. That's a pain that you are getting over an injury. I had a similar problem before I started back exercising recently. 5:2 was good for me to shift some weight and to feel healthier too.
Big Choc, thanks for your lovely welcome back. That accident sounds horrible. But, like hummus, I would love to be chilling out on a river cruise next week to get out of the heat. Sounds wonderful!
FD1 has gone well so far. 😊

Morning all, good luck to any Sunday fasters.

We have walked the half an hour to the local swimming pool, had an hour of fun swimming (including 10 lengths because I am evil apparently) and walked the half hour home again. Oh and I had a coffee before we left 🤣

At 8,700 steps already for the day before lunchtime. Baked potato with leftover chilli/ strawberries for after lunch and a roast tonight.

Hope everyone else has a good day.

Well done on your 1st FD back, Groovie

Are you starting tomorrow, 214 ? Many folk do Monday FDs.

You can get into the fasting swing today with good NFD habits:
no snacking, maximum 1 glass wine today, lots of water

HI, MrD
That's a nice energetic morning

I did a fasted spin class - B = black coffee - then had a 45 minute walk along the Rhine

Late L:
cold high protein soup, whipped up with a few frozen avocado chunks, olives and a tbsp chia seeds
poured onto some chopped raw tomato and spring onion

How's your FD going, hummus ?

That lunch sounds yummy bigchoc. All ok here - coffee for breakfast, stir fry food lunch and hopefully a salad for dinner. DD and DH are snoozing upstairs, I’m harvesting veg in the garden. Cucumbers, tomatoes and a few courgettes.

Home-grown veg, the most delicious
and the only veg with negative calories - because of all the work growing them !