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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 18/06/2019 10:07

I’ve pretty much finished my FD and it’s been ok, I think I’ll do a b2b tomorrow because I’m travelling on Thursday. I met a friend for lunch and so had prob 500 cal with 2 slices of thin crust vege pizza. It’s my first time eating middle of the day and it actually might be easier. I’ve had an egg and a green salad with broccoli tonight and feel ok. Probably all up 650 or so. I’ll see how tomorrow goes and add a bit more if TOTM makes things harder.

Anyone else actually like the mental clarity after a FD?

nolongersurprised · 18/06/2019 10:17

Any support/advice you can offer would be greatly accepted, I am so fed up of feeling like shit!

Others are more careful but for me what’s worked with 5:2 is focusing on the FDs and not bearing myself up on NFDs. For me the beauty of this is that there’s only 2 days where there’s a sense of restriction, being punitive every day wouldn’t work as well. I was always slim until my 40s when the weight crept on but just “being careful” clearly wasn’t working. I’d put on over 10kg

Fillybuster · 18/06/2019 10:23

Welcome NewStart! Lots of helpful advice, links and recipes at the top (bottom?) of this thread, and you’ll get loads of encouragement from the lovely posters on here. As you say, it’s about a full reset, and that doesn’t come easy, so don’t give up if you find it hard at the beginning - it gets easier!

Leukae - me too!! When I did this 5 or 6 years ago, starting from a similar (slowly lower Blush) point, I dropped at least 3 or 4 lbs in my first few weeks. I’m now 45, and it’s just not budging: FD yesterday and I’m still 10.1.4 this morning. But dh has reminded me that this is a long game, not a quick one (& he’s not usually that encouraging!) so I’m trying to keep my head in the game. For me, there’s a psychological barrier around the 10stone mark, but also a physical one, as I often get stuck here for ages, so I’ll start feeling like I’m making real progress when the numbers start with a 9!

Surprised - sounds like you’re going great guns! yes, me too - I find myself super alert, and often can’t sleep after....like I’m really buzzing. Funnily enough, I’m also thinking about doing a b2b: I don’t normally but keen to make some progress and am wondering if this might help kick start the whole thing. I’m working from home today and out at the theatre this evening, so might fast right through until I go to meet dh for a quick pre dinner bite. If I pop to the gym in my lunch hour, I might be able to distract myself from the fridge for the day!

LeukaeLucky · 18/06/2019 10:35

@Fillybuster good to know its not just me. I've started at the beginning of June and lost 2 kilos but I've been stuck now for a few days and find it so frustrating. I'm only 34 but the hormones are playing up (menopause is truly a bitch especially at an early age)
Anyway like your dh said it's a long run so I'll try to be resilient x

BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2019 10:55

Welcome, NewStart Smile

tips:

First, stop beating yourself up; whatever your weight, you are worth more than that

On FDs:

  • Plan the menu in advance, the day before, so you are not hunting in the fridge
    Do NOT try to have zero-cal days, because it's not sustainable over the weeks and may lead to losing muscle

  • Base each meal on a moderate portion of protein, plus masses of non-starchy veg, optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
    e.g. fish / prawns / eggs with salad or stirfry veg

  • No alcohol or junk whatsoever, i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, crisps etc

  • Don't snack or graze, eat preferably just lunch & supper, or supper - nothing between
    So black coffee / espresso / tea for breakfast, preferably without milk or sweetener

  • Start the day with a glass of water and keep drinking

  • To help avoid headaches while you adapt to fasting, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) - regard it as medicine, even if you hate it.
    It replenishes salt & other minerals, also boosts B vits

  • Do NOT eat back any exercise calories on FDs

NFDs
Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits,
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2019 11:08

What can slow down loss:

some meds, peri / meno, conditions like PCOS, thyroid, preT2

If you have high insulin resistance / preT2 / T2 / then you probably won't lose unless you also cut right back on sugar and starchy carbs on NFDs

If you are very short, your TDEE - at your ideal weight - is often quite low,
hence the FD calorie deficit is easily eaten back on indulgent NFDs,
especially if you have more than 1 big social occasion per week

Some folk lose by just eating normally on NFDs

Others - especially those who have been quite overweight for a long time - need to permanently change their "normal" to what their body actually burns

Note:
if you eat as much as your male partner or your taller woman friend / partner then you are probably eating more than your body can burn

Lifestyle:
Regularly exceeding NHS weekly / daily alcohol limits (1 glass wine per day)
High consumption of sugary / fatty / salty processed food
Snacking between meals (except on plain raw veg)

OP posts:
LeukaeLucky · 18/06/2019 13:18

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy
Really useful
I don't take any drugs yet re: menopause but should be seeing a doc soon ish I don't drunk nor snack
Um quite short so I guess it's my metabolism and I need to be stricter on fd

LeukaeLucky · 18/06/2019 13:23

Sorry NFD

NewStartYetAgain · 18/06/2019 15:42

Wow good reply bigchoc thanks!

I should also state weight loss is proving tricky due to my contraceptive pill - have seen GP about this and they have confirmed this is the reason I am struggling with losing weight. The pill I am on increases appetite and craving for crap. DH is waiting for the all clear after having the snip so I can dump the damn pill.

Fast hasn't happened today as I really didn't plan ahead (point taken). Your advice is fantastic though so gonna read it through again then will read the whole thread during my quiet time tonight. I will try again with better planning tomorrow.

Thank you for some fantastic advice!

GrannyPenny · 18/06/2019 17:50

Dipping back in to wave hello to old and new names.

Nothing much to report really, the "no snacking" rule is working well and my weight seems to maintain up/down by a half kilo. Am still on my self imposed no sugary treats rule although I have to admit it is still very hard sometimes.

Anyway, I have a wedding to go to in October and ideally would like to lose a few cm from my waistline which means dropping a couple of kilos so need to reacquaint myself with FDs. MY BMI is squarely in the middle of healthy so I'm expecting it to be a slow process.

Wednesday FD for me but will aim for 750 cals to ease myself in.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2019 19:35

Welcome back, granny and good luck

That's fab you have stopped snacking and are maintaining well
5:2 until October should trim your waist a bit

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/06/2019 19:43

Still not had time to catch up on thread..... maybe when ds is in bed.

Anyway just logging on to say fd done at around 550cals, cup of tea later and an early night I think. Hope everyone else fasting today has managed well Smile

LeukaeLucky · 18/06/2019 20:16

635 cal for my fd today
I'm hungry 😂

EssentialHummus · 18/06/2019 20:41

Welcome NewStart!

Kitchen closed here. Lentil dhal for lunch, a big salad with mrd’s dressing for dinner, and a few coffees. NFD tomorrow, FD on Thursday.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2019 20:56

Well done on your FDs, 43, lucky, hummus

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 19/06/2019 05:38

Forgot to post to say successful FD done, but it was.

Seem to be craving carbs all the time again at the moment which is tricky, but am glugging the water and if I'm strong it will bugger off again soon.

NFD today.

Glad to hear maintenance is going well granny, you definitely won the snacking war!

GrannyPenny · 19/06/2019 08:55

Gosh MrD, you're an early riser.

So, FD for me, albeit a mini one. Hoping to have some company - my stomach still thinks it's in holiday mode so is rumbling in anticipation of breakfast, which it will not get until mid-day!

OohMrDarcy · 19/06/2019 08:57

Ha not normally! Son up vomiting in the night and didn't sleep well after... I'm knackered!

GrannyPenny · 19/06/2019 09:06

Oh no, poor son and poor you. Hope he's better soon.

On the plus side you've managed to put me off breakfast.

OohMrDarcy · 19/06/2019 09:53

sorry!

claptomania · 19/06/2019 12:35

Signing in (late) for an FD here. Salad for lunch, followed by salmon with tabbouleh for dinner, made with couscous for the boys and cauli couscous for me.

Hope your DS feels better soon MrD.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 13:02

Well done, MrD
Sorry to hear about your DS - I hope he's better asap and that you catch up on sleep

At least you've helped fasters avoid breakfast !

Good luck, Granny, clap and any other Wednesday fasters

30C+ here again 😤

  • I had Abs & Flexibility class at the gym this morning and I have advanced lifting this evening, with my usual weekday 30 km cycling commute in between < drips sweat on thread >
OP posts:
claptomania · 19/06/2019 13:37

Whereabouts are you, BigChoc? London is fuggy and drizzly and grey.
Impressed with the hot weather exercise!

GrannyPenny · 19/06/2019 13:53

I think BC's in Germany, not sure which part though.

Having just come back from a walking holiday in the hills of Saxony, I have to say i'm finding the weather in London very refreshing. Walking 5-7 hours a day in temperatures of 32C was at times quite unpleasant!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 22:02

I'm in the Rhein valley; my appartment is right on the Rhein path

Lovely early morning walks, but later on the heat outdoors becomes oppressive

OP posts:
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