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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2019 18:12

gold wire

OP posts:
disillusionedteacher · 03/03/2019 18:29

Definitely saving money! DP normally buys it on his way home from work so he's thrilled at the prospect!

BCF that is scary the damage that only 1 can can do!! It is definitely my aim to cut it out altogether by the end of my Fast800 weeks before moving to 5:2! Thanks

Iamblossom · 03/03/2019 21:43

Wow you guys can chat. Will catch up on thread in a bit.

Have discovered an easy albeit not recommended way to successfully fast - be in hospital. Fell of a horse on Saturday and broke my collar bone in two places and four ribs. Don't really feel like eating much. Which hopefully will balance out the complete lack of exercise I can do for at least a month. Confused

Hockneypool · 03/03/2019 22:48

Goodness me Blossom that sounds awful. Hope you are OK and have been given very strong painkillers.

Just delurking to say Hi on the new thread.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 07:01

Oh, blossom So sorry to hear about your accident 💐
All those broken bones Sad
I hope the horse was suitably apologetic - did you fall, or did he stop suddenly and you continued onwards & downwards ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 07:02

Hi, hockney How are you doing so far ?

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/03/2019 07:19

Ouch blossom hope you are feeling better soon Flowers

Had a good weekend but didn't mfp at all and ended up with too much Wine overall.... but had saved calories and skipped food until dinner on the sat so hoping I'm okay. Usually fast on a Monday but have signed up to a pilates class that doesn't start until 8pm tonight, and I woke up to totm Angry so far too much to deal with today... fd will be Tues and Fri this week. Anyone here do pilates? What am I to expect....

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/03/2019 07:20

Welcome teacher and wow, what a fab start with that loss!!

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 04/03/2019 07:48

Morning all, and happy Monday!

FD for me today - have a very busy day at work ahead do hopefully that will keep me distracted enough to not worry about what I'm (not) putting in my mouth!

Good luck to all fasters today and get well soon blossom!

LittleSwede · 04/03/2019 08:11

FD here too! Have breakfast ready (2 boiled eggs) and leftovers for lunch (lentil soup) and dinner (chicken stew) so should be able to keep on track. Lost 1,5 kg in my first week which turned out to be. 4:3 as did 800 cals on three consecutive days.

Hope everyone has a lovely day.

Earslaps · 04/03/2019 09:08

Ouch blossom, hope you make a speedy recovery!

Well done on starting @disillusionedteacher. I quit Diet Coke just before starting 5:2 and I lost half a stone. It always made me so hungry. It crept back in again but I've stopped again and feel so much better for it. I only have it if I'm out now.

Checking in for today's FD. Did a 6.30am spin class and aiming for just water, green tea and a miso soup until dinner. That will be chilli prawns with edamame spaghetti and rocket. Really looking forward to it.

SmallFastPenguin · 04/03/2019 09:30

Hello all I have had a bad weekend of overeating and fear I have undone all my weightloss from the week. This is my problem with most diets to be honest not just fasting but with the 'feast' days idea in my head and having had low cal NFD during the week it did seem to make me feel I could eat more at the weekend, then I got carried away. Has anyone else had this problem and got a solution?

My other problem is I have a friend on another diet forum who is very anti fasting. She is a lovely lady in many ways so I am not trying to put her down, but she believes very much only in normal low carbing and is so anti other WOEing that it is a bit offputting. Can anyone comment on this post she made:

"Fasting puts the liver under terrible strain as toxins are then concentrated and your liver has to deal with them, regardless.

Christina Newman, a lovely young mother from America on youtube who documented her fight against Metastatic breast cancer (and who tragically died 2 1/2 years after diagnosis) was told by her consultant not to fast. She had been doing this on and off for years for ', health reasons' and wished she hadn't after she was told that fasting floods the liver with concentrated toxins."

OohMrDarcy · 04/03/2019 09:31

Morning all

Busy chatty weekend I see!

Blossom - thats a lot of injuries... hope you aren't feeling too much in pain and you are being looked after!

Welcome teacher - ace start!

I'm currently deciding whether to fast today or tomorrow. Today I'm home alone all day working - so in that respect simple, and tomorrow I'm at head office for meetings... If fasting there I normally have a healthyish subway as my main meal for the day.... might just see how I go this morning and decide as the day goes on!

We had an amazing roast this weekend - pork for a change... mountains of veg (which even DS finished and had extras of!) and because I had a shed load of calories spare, we baked a camembert for supper with crusty bread and raw carrots to dip - all under TDEE. Love this WOE and the way I'm learning to have much healthier but also more delicious treat days!

Earslaps · 04/03/2019 10:03

@SmallFastPenguin if you friend is so dogmatic about one particular type of diet I don't think you will ever change her mind. Just smile and nod!

Our bodies are well designed to get rid of toxins and no one who ever talks about them in a detox etc can ever tell you what 'toxins' we are supposed to be worrying about. If you eat and drink well the rest of the time and keep hydrated on a FD there should be nothing to fear.

Very long fasts can put the body into ketosis, a long period of which could be harmful to your liver and kidneys. However, low carb is also often said to put you into ketosis too.

Short periods of fasting with plenty of good, wholesome food the rest of the time is proving in lots of studies to protect us from diabetes, heart disease and some types of cancer. I love that fasting doesn't require you to cut out any food groups, so you won't be limiting the vitamins and minerals you take in. And it makes it much more sustainable than other 'diets'.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 04/03/2019 10:37

It's a fairly good rule of thumb to dismiss anything/anyone that talks about 'toxins' without being able to specify exactly what those toxins are and demonstrate evidence-based understanding of what damage they can do to the body. It's a ridiculous word much-beloved of self-styled 'nutritionists' and the like. Smile, nod and ignore Grin

OohMrDarcy · 04/03/2019 10:57

Penguin, I must be missing something - I thought that was literally the job of the liver, to filter toxins..... Hmm

QuackingDuck1985 · 04/03/2019 12:24

Thanks for the new thread BCF, wow so many posts already.

Blossom - Oh my goodness you poor thing. I really wish you a speedy recovery.

Hockey - How are you doing?

43 - Sounds like you had a good weekend and balanced it out. I don’t do Pilates but heard it’s Awsome for toning up.

SmallFast - in the early days of fasting I wasn’t getting great results as at least once a week after a FD I would go to a all you can eat breakfast buffet as a kind of reward for doing my FD, then the 2nd day after a FD I would gorge on far too much breakfast. After a few weeks of being stuck in this pattern I learnt to stop as it was a bit depressing not loosing / getting very small losses.

Re your friend, I’d just take it with a pinch of salt I think most people are passionate about the diet they are on. I personally now never use the term fasting I say 5:2 as I got fed up of the “starving yourself comments”

Darcy have you decided if your fasting today?

I’ve had a good week back, not a single piece of junk has passed my lips. Been at TDEE or under every day. Not much movement on the scales tho and that’s shocked me as I have been supporting a large gain 7+ lbs. But it’s occurred to me this morning I’ve fasted twice this week but at 800 cals as I’ve been doing maintenance fasting at 800 for a year it’s become second nature. This week I will aim for at least one FD at 500 and see if that helps.

Good luck to Maud, Little Swede and Earslaps on your FDs and anyone else who is fasting today.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 12:56

penguin Fasting is being used by some cancer researchers_ as part of the treatment_

There is some evidence that fasting enables chemo to work more effectively
and also protects the neighbouring non-cancerous cells from chemo.

There have been animal tests, plus some human trials, but more trials are needed.

The findings were that 48-hr and 72-hr fasting prior to chemo reduced the expression of the HO-1 gene in the T regulatory cells.
This made it easier for the chemo drugs to attack the cancer.

This research team also found that 72 hours of fasting was associated with lower chemo side effects, compared with fasting for only 24 hours:

https://news.usc.edu/103972/fasting-like-diet-turns-the-immune-system-against-cancer/

More papers, plus fasting experiences from cancer sufferers

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/03/how-to-get-through-chemotherapy-decca-aitkenhead-cancer-treatment
https://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3408

Longo recommended fasting 72 hours prior to chemo, and for 24 hours afterwards, although other researchers have varying protocols.

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 04/03/2019 12:57

Hey quacking , decided to go for tomorrow - the kids are at their dads tonight and I didn't want to fall into an accidental trap of boredom eating, so I'd rather plan for my meals to be good and go from there I think - for now at least.

Sounds like you've had a good week - just need to go back to the losing FDs and you'll be fine.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 12:59

Any lurker undergoing cancer treatment MUST discuss with their oncologist before embarking on a fasting protocol
- they may think it unsuitable in your particular case, too experimental, or may want to modify dosages etc

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 13:03

Several 5:2ers have reported their doctor suggested they do 5:2 for weight loss

Also, the NHS has an ongoing 5,000-trial into an 800-cal 8 week fasting diet

  • and yes, that's using the same protocol as Prof Taylor of Newcastle Uni, whose work Mosely used for the BSD
OP posts:
Earslaps · 04/03/2019 13:22

Yes, Big Choc, I have a friend whose Dr told her to try 5:2 as she carries all her weight around her middle and also suffered from Gestational Diabetes when she was pregnant with her third.

A GP friend of mine recommends it to patients too.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/03/2019 14:17

Penguin The 5 NFDs aren't "feast days";
they should be maintenance days, so that you don't eat back the FD deficit.
Feast days are for special occasions, like birthdays, weddings, anniversaries

Many people who have been overweight a long time have to retrain their "Normal" to be the level at which they maintain.
The NFDs are useful for this, to form new lifelong habits

There are 2 main ways of retraining on NFDs:

  1. Use mfp to check you are within TDEE Check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think

OR

  1. Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:
  • NHS alcohol limits,
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

tip for either method:
do daily 12:12, as Mosely now advises
i.e. eat only within a 12-hour window, e.g. 8am - 8pm, so from 8pm to 8am just have water

OP posts:
scruffybarnsley · 04/03/2019 17:13

Hello all,

The prodigal scruffy is back! Had an amazing half term away in Norway and had fixed last Tuesday as my first FD back after hols - which I managed until dinner time and then sabotaged with wine. A pattern repeated every subsequent day plus lots of extra carbs! So an unsuccessful first week back but almost entirely due to TOTM plus an incredibly stressful week rather than holiday creep.

So...today is a new week. Good day of nothing so far and will have some chilli and veg for dinner. I won't lie, I'm hungry, but it's my own fault for indulging for TWO weeks. Think I was worse after I got back than I was on hol! Bloody hormones.

Well done for some amazing losses in my absence, and ouch blossom, hope you're not in too much pain?

I'm going to have a healthy NFD tomorrow and then try a B2B Wed/Thurs. Back in the game.

Thanks bigchoc for the new thread. So glad to be back.

SmallFastPenguin · 04/03/2019 17:25

Thanks everyone I have heard plenty of times that fasting is good for you so I don't know why one person saying it's not worried me. Maybe because my friend knows a lot about low carb but that doesn't mean she is an expert on every diet of course.

Do you think it would be better for me to stick close to TDEE on all my NFDs rather than cutting back some days so I can have extra at the weekend?

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