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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Ithinkyourewonderful · 17/04/2019 11:58

Hello everyone! I'm joining in to hopefully get some advice and encouragement and to give me some accountability! Smile.

I started the 5:2 way of eating a few weeks ago when I was feeling overweight and sluggish and did some research into Micheal Mosely etc after my Aunt and Uncle raved about their experience/weightloss/health benefits.

I've had an up and down time, over the last month and a half. Stuck to the diet for a couple of weeks and then went on holiday for 3 weeks which derailed things a bit. My start weight was around 67kgs and I'm down to around 63kgs now (not 100% sure as my scales are very temperamental). I've been reading back through this thread and already am learning a lot.

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about all the counting calories and weighing myself that this approach necessitates, which probably comes from some periods of disordered/restrictive eating when I was young and not wanting to pass on any 'wierdness' about food and body image to my two DDs.

nolongersurprised · 17/04/2019 12:41

“I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about all the counting calories and weighing myself that this approach necessitates, which probably comes from some periods of disordered/restrictive eating when I was young and not wanting to pass on any 'wierdness' about food and body image to my two DDs.”

Ithink everyone on this thread seems to have a different approach that works for them but I don’t calorie count at all outside of fast days and I tend to guess on fast days now too. If it wasn’t working for me or I didn’t trust my portion sizes or food choices I probably would count calories all the time but fundamentally I find the best thing about 5:2 is that it isn’t restrictive at all for most of the week. I only think about food choices 2 days a week (except for snacking, bigchoc).

hoochymamgu · 17/04/2019 15:36

Hi you lovely fasters Smile

So great to read everyone's posts.
Welcome Seriously and Thenbella. Good going, Harrie!

Well done Maz and Lania
So good to know that others are fasting too

to Oohmrdarcy, Essential, Nolonger and Fiddle.

Hope your feeling better Blossom

Just did B2B Monday and Tuesday, easier if I'm in work. Trying also not to overeat on the other days, which has always been my downfall Blush

I'm on annual leave now until 7th May. Bigchoc debating whether to leave fasting until then. It's so easy to fast when I'm in work as I'm so busy. I'll see if I can fit in one or two odd days.

Keep going Spotty it's hard if your staying with people.

Hey 43 I tend to feel fat whatever weight I am Wink but I do feel healthier on this WOE. It's good when other people notice.

But, I've had such headaches on the FD's. I've had bovril/lots to drink... I don't eat until the evening. I could try having something small for breakfast. Hmm.

hoochymamgu · 17/04/2019 15:40

Welcome Wonderful it's nice to have support and have advice from BCF.
It's true nolonger I'm pretty rubbish about counting calories too. I just have to be sensible Grin

harriethoyle · 17/04/2019 18:33

Kitchen closing on 562. Happy with that! How's everyone else got on?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/04/2019 20:11

Impromptu day off with ds so not been able to post / read very much as literally not bloody stopped.... but welcome any newbies and well done weds fasters.

Day 2 of b2b and I think I'm closer to 700 but I'll take that! Got a super busy easter break ahead with visitors and lots of meals to prep and cook plus baking etc eating and drinking too much so probably won't be back on much until next fd which is planned for Tues.

Happy easter everyone!! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2019 22:20

Welcome, wonderful 🙂
and congratulation on your SV

You could weigh weekly, or every 2 or even 4 weeks if you prefer
For consistency in weighing, I recommend weighing naked, 1st thing in the morning after FD, after loo but before eating or drinking anything.

Many people don't need to count on NFDs, if they keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits,
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones
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BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2019 22:32

Well done on your FD, 43, Harriet, Maz
and on your stomach NSV, Maz

Remember you can have around 650 cals on b2b FDs, 43 (or 800 for those who do 800 single FDs)
so you've nailed this one

hoochy To avoid FD headaches, glug 1 teasp Marmite mid.morning & mid-afternoon
It is more effective than Bovril at replensishing lost salt & minerals, that may be low while your body adapts to fasting
It also boosts B vits, so it's quite healthy

Even if you hate Marmite, glug down the teasp like medicine and drink water afterwards

If FDs are too tough when you are off work, you could try to fit in a few miniFDs instead
MiniFDs have the same food rules as FDs - no alcohol or junk etc - the only difference being you can have 800-1000 cals

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2019 23:16

If Marmite doesn't work, then you may have unstable blood sugar
in which case I'd recommend 800 cal FDs with 3 small meals, one of which should be breakfast

(Mosely wrote that 800 cals in the BSD / fast800 better suits some people with unstable blood sugar)

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MazDazzle · 17/04/2019 23:35

Well done harrie, Lania and to everyone else fasting today.

This had been a tough FD for me. I’m freezing and SO HUNGRY! Sad

I just need to keep telling myself that I CAN HAVE IT TOMORROW.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2019 23:59

I hope you're tucked up in bed now, Maz

Tip: Have an early night on FDs
It shortens the FD a bit and the extra sleeping time maximises fasting benefits

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MazDazzle · 18/04/2019 07:58

I went to bed as soon as I got in from work and cranked up my electric blanket!

After a week back on the wagon I’m 5lb down. Haven’t had any squash, fizzy drinks or alcohol this week. Just tea, coffee and water. I managed to keep sweet treats to a minimum too at two days out of 7.

Here goes week 2...

Ithinkyourewonderful · 18/04/2019 08:57

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome and Bigchoc for the advice. Another FD for me so I can enjoy the Easter weekend a bit! Good luck for everyone fasting today

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 09:30

Well done on your SV, Maz
Fab start back

Good luck on your pre-Easter FD, wonderful and any other fasters today

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harriethoyle · 18/04/2019 17:07

Well done @maz! I just got back from my first half marathon training run. 2.56 miles and I thought I might vomit at the end!! Only 11.5 miles to add...!!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 17:57

Well done on your running, harriet
Do you have a definite half-marathon date in mind ?
It's a good idea to get used to running with others by participating in 5k and then 10k when you are ready for those distances

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blodynmawr · 18/04/2019 20:22

2nd FD of the week done. Around 700 cals.
Off next week so hope I can keep up the FDs... Planning DIY so should keep busy..
@hoochymamgu Nice to see another Welsh name on the thread Smile

seriouslylong · 18/04/2019 22:45

So this was my first week of fasting for the first time in years! It actually went quite well :)
I started at 9.5.8 stone and ended on 9.4 stone Smile

So my fast days are Monday's and Wednesday's, I'm not sure if I will fast this Monday or not, is anyone else fasting on Easter Monday? 🐣

seriouslylong · 18/04/2019 22:47

Also do you guys eat the calories you earn from exercise or not? I'm not too sure what to do about that Confused

nolongersurprised · 18/04/2019 23:29

Finished second FD yesterday - not as good as Monday on about 700cal but guests arrived (not staying with us though, as renovations are ongoing) and TOTM arrived mid afternoon and I felt hideous.

Friday is my weigh in day and I’m down 300g to 65.8, 1.8kg to go.

seriously I’ll go a FD on Monday, probably. I don’t eat back my exercise calories, I want my body to utilise its stores! I can’t exercise too hard on FDs though, if I’m planning a run I dial down the intensity. Others are great at it though.

seriouslylong · 18/04/2019 23:44

No longer - I wouldn't eat back calories on fast days but wondering if I could on normal days?

nolongersurprised · 19/04/2019 00:24

Oh, I see what you mean! I don’t calorie count at all on NFD, so if I’m hungry I just eat moreSmile. Someone else will give better advice, I’m sure. Just to add though, hunger seems to be so unpredictable, isn’t it? I wouldn’t personally try to eat more than I felt I needed just because I’d run, because a few days later I might find myself having an unexpected ravenous day, for no reason.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 00:29

Well done, blody, surprised

and congratulations on your SV, seriously
A good 1st week

FDs are "diet days" and NFDs are "maintenance days", i.e. don't eat back the calorie deficit

Mosely says NEVER eat back calories on FDs, because fasting is not about calorie deficit, but about the intake.
So, no extra even if you are in minus calories on an FD

For NFDs, if you want a rough calorie target, aim for TDEE and use Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity lvel lower than they think

Don't eat back exercise calories via gadgets or machines instead, as they often significantly over-estimate activity

For those who want to speed up loss, on one or more days per week, you can eat to sedentary TDEE, or to goal TDEE
If you have a lot to lose, then 1 day eating to goal TDEE helps accustom you to how you'll need to eat at goal weight.

However, unless you are doing BSD / Fast800,
I recommend most people eat to their full TDEE at least one NFD per week, for sustainability and to keep your metabolism revved up.

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OohMrDarcy · 19/04/2019 09:05

Morning all

Checking in for a Good Friday FD today. Yet to plan food but I'm sat plotting it now and we have plenty in. More lessons learned, I've got the hang of keeping things going whilst the DC are off school and around (should probably wait to see if I have an SV this weekend before that mind!).

Anyone else fasting with me today?

Should be pretty easy to avoid chocolate this weekend as the DC are off with their dad after today for the rest of the weekend. Easter arrived early here and I'm not even fancying any Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 10:07

Happy Easter, everyone !

Wow, darcy you are hardcore, but it is a good opportunity with your DC away.

I'm off out now for a Rhine amble, followed by a delic brunch at my fav Rhine cafe
It's 24-25C here for at least the next week Smile < skips for joy > so I'm in shorts & T

I hope you can also enjoy a sunny Easter walk

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