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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Earslaps · 21/03/2019 19:16

@Iamblossom I just discovered that you can get audiobooks free through an app called BorrowBox if your library is signed up to it. Game changer!

Good luck for your recovery.

Dinner was totally amazing- added a couple of small crumbs of feta to the veg and fish, then finished with a square of dark chocolate. Totally indulgent and filling meal for around 300 calories.

blodynmawr · 21/03/2019 19:40

Thanks for the welcome all Smile
FD today. Pot of cottage cheese for lunch. Spinach omelette for supper. 600 ish cals. Copious amounts of black coffee at work through until lunch but that was an existing habit before starting 5:2Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2019 21:32

Well done on your FDs, Blody, Earslaps

That's excellent that you are mobile, blossom
Yes, leave the pulling pup at home !
You can cuddle him afterwards, for therapy < I have Lab pup envy Envy >

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 22/03/2019 07:44

Well I say pup he was 1 yesterday:

From this a year ago, to this.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind
5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind
EssentialHummus · 22/03/2019 07:57

Oh my goodness, he's beautiful! Those silky ears!

Iamblossom · 22/03/2019 08:47

He is a very handsome boy I have to agree. His mother was rescued from a breeding farm, she had never been on a walk, didn't have a name...the couple that adopted her from that rescue place didn't know she was pregnant and Jackson was from that litter. The couple only wanted their costs covered plus a donation to the charity so we found ourselves with a pedigree black lab for £300. He is very affectionate, and very bouncy. Pretty good at training but pulls like a train on the lead and has had me flat on my face before so no way will I risk walking him at the moment, he goes with the dog walker. My little daxie however trots beautifully by my side.

Sorry ladies didn't mean to derail our fasting thread with my broken bits and my dogs!

OohMrDarcy · 22/03/2019 08:57

Morning all

Checking in for a Friday FD once more and feeling good today!

Sorry I've not been keeping on top of the thread, work has been crazy and I've been finding myself in bed not long after the eldest all week!

Have had lots of thoughts about how I'm feeling in the last 24hrs or so (all good) I'll post properly later, but feels like I'm finally getting back to myself, which is a very good thing.

Blossom your pup is gorgeous!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2019 12:16

Oh, Blossom That gorgeous face (the pup's not yours ! 😏 )
and in lovely condition.
Thank goodness his mum was rescued

MrD Do share positive thoughts when you are ready, later
You sound in a very good place, with your mojo firmly switched on

Good luck to any Friday fasters 🙂

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 22/03/2019 13:31

Afternoon all,

I've just demolished an amazing FD lunch of a massive low fat caesar salad with grilled halloumi on top, my god it was DELICIOUS and bang on my 500 cals. Water for the rest of the day and a cup of tea tonight and I'll be done.

So, my thoughts.... I have been feeling so much like the real / old me recently, so its been playing on my mind what has changed - and why didn't this happen last time. I think last time was just too soon after the split with ExH, was going through mountains of stress with him until about this time last year so I just kept being pulled back and not able to move on properly.
We now have strict rules - he doesn't come to the door, and all communication except in an emergency is via email (only emergency in that time was an injury I thought might need hospital and wanted 2nd opinion on). That of course means I've not had to be pulled back all the time. I feel finally free. Don't get me wrong, there will be stressful times ahead I'm sure, but I've had the time I needed to separate my brain from his if that makes sense?

Anyhoo - it feels like I'm coming out of a cocoon, and I'm revealing the real me again for the first time in freaking forever. The kids and I have fun mostly, I'm just feeling more alive, I dance around in the shower and brushing my teeth Grin - sorry probably not an image you needed!

And as a result of that of course, I've been able to get in the zone properly with fasting again. It doesn't feel like a challenge. I'm not planning ahead for how much I could lose by X date (nothing wrong with that if it works for you!) , I'm just happy - pootling along and doing my thing

Anyway - waffle over, just wanted to thank you all for the support over the years so far!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2019 14:01

Fantastic image of a dancing - sparkly clean ! - MrD
I love the positive vibes 😀
This is the real MrD revealed and she is awesome !

OP posts:
Badgerbird · 22/03/2019 14:58

PPP great progress! I'm hoping to lose half a stone too. How will you continue now?
FD that sounds like a seriously successful FD! Lots of running around.
blody how did you find your first day?

OMGithurts · 22/03/2019 15:03

OohMrDarcy just be careful not to slip in the shower please Grin

FD2 here. On track for a 700 cal day. Been mega busy in the house and garden, and about to trail the kids out for a walk.

Badgerbird · 22/03/2019 15:06

blossom derail away, he is Gorgeous!!
I'm a newbie here but loving the transformation mrD it sounds so light!

I'm surprised how much I've enjoyed these past few days. I even came in under my 800 yesterday (692) and felt no want to top up. I'm enjoying the extra energy and so much so that I only ate half what I would normally have for brekkie and ate later leaving a good 14/15 hr window. I'm fascinated. I suppose we'll see how next week goes Smile

Do some people do 5:2 and 18:6 on non FD's?

Good luck for those fasting and enjoy weekend all.

blodynmawr · 22/03/2019 15:34

@Badgerbird I have been doing 5:2 since January but only found this thread this week Smile
3lb off this week, more great progress which is really motivatingGrin
I try and eat 16:8 on all days but struggle on weekends with timing and staying within TDEE.
Weekdays are less challenging - I usually fast on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Am a biologist so love Moseley's books and the scientific approach Smile

blodynmawr · 22/03/2019 16:15

That should've said Tuesdays and Thursdays!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/03/2019 19:16

Well done, Blody, badger, OMG

For women, 14:10 is often recommended instead of 16:8, since our bodies can find fasting a bit tougher than men do
Mosely says that those with blood sugar issues, e.g preT2 may not cope well with such a restricted eating window
hence his Fast 800 / BSD has 3 small meals per day

From the latest science, Mosely and also leading researcher Victor Longo, recommend daily 12:12 for health

  • so I suggest this system most days
I find 14:10 or 16:8 useful during FDs
OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 22/03/2019 21:32

Another FD smashed here, time for bed and then lots of jobs this weekend!

My brain keeps thinking of heading to London for the peoples vote March, but don't think I'm brave enough without anyone I know!

Blody - fab SV, well done!

Badger, I do about 18:6 ish all the time nowadays. But - caveat time, I've never really needed breakfast anyway, so it wasnt something I've actively worked at, just naturally fell into this pattern.

Apols for the imagery OMG and bigchoc! Grin

nolongersurprised · 23/03/2019 00:39

Everyone is doing so well, both mentally and physically.

blossom your dog is gorgeous. My kids would love a dog but we have 3 cats (one of them was an accident) and that’s enough. Plus, DH and I both work and we have 4 kids, that’s enough!

My weight was the same yesterday but TOTM arrived this morning so I wasn’t expecting a loss, I could tell I was retaining fluid. Now that it’s here I feel better.

I normally fast tues and thurs because I don’t work on Tuesdays and Thursdays I finish reasonably early. However, this week I have a few days away for a work conference from Thursday - Saturday. It would be easy enough to fast during the day on Thursday, especially as I’ll just be travelling for 1/2 of it, but I usually go out for food after these conferences with colleagues and I enjoy those dinners. So, I’m thinking of a back-to-back fast Tuesday and Wednesday. I haven’t tried this yet - are they a lot harder?

OohMrDarcy · 23/03/2019 06:54

Surprised, b2b are pretty hardcore and don't suit everyone. I'd try either Mon, Weds or Tuesday and Sunday personally.

I've just done my official weekly weigh in. I'm now 15st 13.4lb! 🎉🎉

Means a loss of 2.6lb this week. It also confirms my 10% and 25% milestones and slips me nicely into the next stone bracket as well! This is a good week! I'm kids free this weekend so shall make sure I do something for me to celebrate - non food related of course!

Happy weekend everyone

fiddletree · 23/03/2019 08:52

Oop – thread moving fast. Not quite caught up yet, but oh my god, you poor thing blossom. That sounds really awful. I hope you’re beginning to feel a bit better, especially after your, ahem, evacuation. Also, your black lab is GORGEOUS. Sounds very sensible to give his walks a miss for a bit, tho.
Welcome Badger and Blodyn. I usually do 800 cal FDs, Badger, though am sometimes a bit under. Mostly have opted for this because I’m BFing, but also because my intro to MM was through the Fast800 book, where he uses 800 as general suggestion. But as BigChoc mentioned, he also suggests you do this in combo with a med-style diet, which is pretty low carb. I mostly keep to this, and have had a really good result especially at the beginning.
Pisspot congrats on the SV and great healthy BMI. I feel like fasting affects me emotionally, too. Haven’t heard anyone else mention this – is it common? I often feel a bit down and grumpy, usually just at the very end of the day.

Oh, MrDarcy - that is such a lovely post. I am so happy to hear you’re doing so well. Sounds so great and so well deserved.
I’m a bit up and down here. Some days I feel totally invigorated, and so grateful to have latched onto this WOE. Really noticing the difference to my appearance, and felt svelte and energetic on Fri. But, I’m struggling sometimes a bit with NFDS, and staying within TDEE and not snacking/indulging. I keep wondering if I can keep that part of it up long term. Ironically, it’s easier to manage the FDs in terms of discipline, because it’s more clear-cut. I had a bit of a wobbly day today and quite a big dinner, so definitely over TDEE. Maybe this is just part of finding my balance and working out what my real calorie needs are. I guess we’ll see how the weigh-in goes next week. If I can keep slowly losing, even with a few wobbles, that will be really reassuring and will make me feel like this is really a sustainable WOE for me.

OohMrDarcy · 23/03/2019 09:16

Hey Fiddle, I'd use this time as a learning period to help you jail NFDs if I were you
If you want the weight to stay off it will be lots easier if you can. What's your TDEE? I've found I've learnt from FDs, so to stay easily in... I have carried on not bothering with breakfast (an occasional brunch at the weekend), and I'm staying aware of the carbs. I still have them but in much more balance. Don't often have desserts and never really snack. But it comes with time. I've found fasting over time resets my appetite on NFDs naturally so haven't had to try too hard. I also set my TDEE at goal ish , it has helped me get used to eating how I need to to maintain but also means I don't worry if I go a little over as I know I'm still under actual TDEE so might just mean a slightly smaller loss one week.

Hope that helps!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2019 09:55

Ooh blossom your dog is adorable, and how sad that his mum had to live that kind of life Sad makes me so angry that people can treat animals like that....

Just catching up quickly, well done mrd and everyone else with a Sv/nsv.

Fd went down the pan yesterday, not had the best week Blush will do better next week!!! I have 9 weeks until my hols and I want to feel slimmer and look okay in a swimsuit... I think part of my problem is that so many people keep telling me how much weight I've lost and that I look great and oh no you don't need to lose anymore surely that I'm loosing my focus on this last (hard) bit of getting to goal. Any tips to drown out those voices Smile

Good luck weekend fasters...

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 12:26

Congratulations on your SV, MrD
Enjoy your non-food celebration

surprised It's best not to try to deprive yourself at such an event
Even if this means missing an FD this week

For b2b you can have 650 calories per day, or stick to 800 if you do 800FDs
You could try if you wish

but I recommend instead that you plan Tuesday and Sunday FDs - after an indulgent few days, you need an FD

Fiddle I always recommend people use the NFDs as "training days"
because for maintenance you need to be able to eat within TDEE, or keep 2 FDs permanently - which some people do.

However, do prioritise killing the snacking / grazing habit
I suggest to feel fuller that you increase your portion size for protein and veg, also boost beans / peas / lentils
Aim for at least 5 different veg per day

If you have a high TDEE, you can probably squeeze in a treat on most NFDs
BUT only as part of a meal, e.g. as your pud
For lowish TDEE, maybe every other NFD

Plan that ONE treat for the day,
plan which meal it comes into,
then stick to the plan

Also, alcohol can lead to major nibbling, so keep to NHS alcohol limitd

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 12:28

43 Those voices are frenemies
Best not to share info about weight loss, just make your FD plans for the week and stick to them

Only you know what is the right weight & shape for your individual bod
Noone should be judging you

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2019 15:20

They really are aren't they bcf Sad and I don't share anything really unless I'm asked...