5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

43 Channel MN and "Did you mean to be so RUDE"

If you regard them as frenemies, then you can picture taking their advice ... to wrap it up carefully and stick it in the bin with all the other smelly rubbish you don't want

That's all their remarks are worth
IGNORE
Stay focused and if you ever feel demotivated, then post on here for a kick in the bum big 5:2 hug

The women around you can be an amazing support group that love and respect you, who cheer on your accomplishments
....
or some want to keep you down, because they can't do what you do and can't bear being left behind
or even keep you down to what they think is "below them", so they have someone to look down on, their fat friend

43 easiest way is to just say "I'm not losing weight for you,I'm doing it for myself and my health. I'm not where I want to be yet". And repeat.

Regardless of their reasoning, it's nothing to do with them,their opinion or their approval.

Most of my friends would tell me I'm fine(out of kindness and acceptance) ,however I know I'm not. It's not even about looks tbh, OH had a big health-scare recently, he's on two type of meds and much fitter and healthier than me. I don't want to find myself in the same position in a few years with even more weight and bad habits.

Had a good day today. Walked a lot, ate a cheese and bacon pastry, one chicken breast and some seeds. Not feeling particularly hungry but planning on an apple if I do get the munchies.

@YourSarcasmIsDripping agree that for me too it is about health. In my late 40s and determined to change my WOE permanently. Evening snacking a bad habit that I resolutely want to kick. My intro to Moseley was the Clever Guts book about a year ago. Started changing my diet for the better then but didn't face up to the amount of weight loss needed until January. 5:2 is for me so far so good

I agree, Blody, Dripping
Several of us who started 5:2 in the early days were in fact motivated by the health benefits, rather than the weight.
So was Mosely - 5:2 didn't start as a weight loss method, but to try to help his T2 and inherited health risks.

In my case, I was analysing the literature for healthy aging and found to my astonishment that the top researchers, with the highest value citations, were working on fasting
So I read up on the science - I'm a STEM PhD, experienced in evaluating scientific research - and I realised that intermittent fasting is leading edge science, with serious potential benefits.

I list some of the peer-reviewed science at the end of the OP, under Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

Thanks for the tips, BigChoc and MrDarcy. I really like the idea of 'training days'! I should have been clearer that I'm not actually indulging my wobbles. I am still staying pretty good with the no snacking and no junk, and I very rarely drink alcohol at the moment. It's just that I'm struggling mentally with it somehow. I'm a chronic overthinker, and my inner voice is always at it. I guess I'm worried that I'm 'training' my body to survive with fewer cals, or something, and that if I want to continue losing I'm going to have to eat less and less. And that I'll never be able to return to 'normal' eating habits. I know it's not scientific in the slightest. Also, that 'normal' doesn't look like what I think it probably does.

I think it's probably a hangover from being too weight conscious when I was in my teens, and being afraid of that idea people tend to trot about your body going into 'starvation mode' and that changing your metabolism. I think this has been largely debunked, though, hasn't it? I think MM said something in Fast800 about it taking serious real deprivation to actually shift your metabolic rate.

Argh, sorry - it feels a bit negative to air these worries/internal dialogues.

I agree with others, 43 that those "suggestions" from friends are probably more about their own comfort with maintaining the status quo. Some people are really challenged and confronted when they see other people improving themselves and their lives. It's almost like a threat to them. You are doing it for yourself, and your own sense of wellbeing and health. And you are doing fabulously!

Please ignore me, all, re above. This is far more about my own issues than any real problem with the 5:2, which has been great so far.

43 personally, I wouldn’t even properly engage in conversations others try to start about your body. Just be vague and non-specific and hopefully they’ll back off. If they say, “Ooh, you look great but you don’t need to lose any more” reply with something vague like, “Yes, I feel great working on my fitness and health.”

Hello there can anyone tell me how many cals u can eat for 2 consecutive day fasts or b to b fasts? I'm sure i read somewhere that u cd have 600 or more for a woman? TIA

Horsey On the b2b version of 5:2, you have 650 cals per day.
Aternatively, you may find it easier to split this 1300 total by having 500 cals FD1 and 800 on FD2

Âlways feel free to vent, fiddle This is absolutely the right place to post about worries.

Your old WOE is what made you put on weight, so you know that was more than your body can burn
That is why the healthy 5:2 rules about snacks & alcohol - to retrain your habits permanently, to retain the lighter you.

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

Also - a big reason why big losers often regain quickly - TDEE will drop noticeably if you have a few stone to lose:

You can check roughly by how much, if you input your current weight and then your goal weight into Mosely's TDEE Calc
and see the difference in what you will need to consume
If you recalculate TDEE after every stone lost, then the NFDs help retrain you into not eating more than your lighter body burns

"Starvation mode" fears are based on a US WW2 study that was deliberately duplicating famine:
They put already lean men on under half their TDEE for 6 months, but with hardly any protein or veg, just low quality carbs
Hence they didn't have adequate nutrition and they were also given heavy exercise.
Obviously a deliberately dreadful combination that damaged their bodies, but no comparison to 5:2

5:2 provides good nutrition - you should be eating reasonably nutritious food every day, with plenty of protein.
To optimise health, aim for 5 portions of different veg + 1 portion fruit on NFDs; also have beans / peas/ lentils often, too, unflavoured yoghurt and move to wholegrain carbs

The contrast between the 2 VLCD days and the 5 maintenance days keeps your metabolism revved up.

Eat your full TDEE at least 1 NFD per week, if you are concerned about keeping your metabolic rate high

• but it really isn't going to fall on 5:2

Also, studies show that 5:2 and ADF / 4:3 with 500 cal FDs retain all your muscle
This is in contrast to conventional daily calorie restricted diets, which may have up to 25% of the loss being muscle

It's just that I'm struggling mentally with it somehow. I'm a chronic overthinker, and my inner voice is always at it. I guess I'm worried that I'm 'training' my body to survive with fewer cals, or something, and that if I want to continue losing I'm going to have to eat less and less. And that I'll never be able to return to 'normal' eating habits. I know it's not scientific in the slightest. Also, that 'normal' doesn't look like what I think it probably does.

fiddleI was too weight conscious in my teens as well, and it was a big shift for me in my 20s to learn that I could eat “normally” and stay quite slim. For me part of the reason why I ended up with an extra 10kg over the last 4 years or so is that while I inherently ate well I didnt think I should restrict myself, probably because I had been too restrictive as a teenager. This has led to ongoing and free snacking but apart from the last few years and immediately post DC I’ve always been slim. Otherwise my relationship with food is pretty good; I don’t have a sweet tooth, I eat loads of veges and I don’t emotionally eat.

Instead of thinking of 5:2 as a calorie restriction program and a throwback to previous times when I’ve had to calorie restrict I’ve decided to view it as a few home truths :

1. at 45 I am never going to be able to eat like I did at 25 without gaining weight
2. I don’t want to be overweight again. Even though I’ve got 3-4kg to go I already look loads better, my old clothes fit and my face looks better without the double chin.
3. 5:2 is working for me because I can forget about my food choices 5 days a week and only focus on this twice/week.

While I like reading others’ posts about their intake on NFD and their awareness of their calories etc I know that this would feel restrictive for me so I don’t do it. I have limited my NFD snacking but I know that my diet is overall ok. Maybe try forgetting about what you eat on NFD so you don’t feel deprived and can trust the 5:2 process?

@mrd what a fabulous post!

@43 I crashed and burned on my friday fast day attempt 🤦🏻‍♀️ back on the horse today! Anyone else doing a Sunday fast with me? X

For some people, who have often struggled with weight for years,
the issue is that their "normal / maintenance eating" is more than their body can burn

This is why many people say they find NFDs tougher than FDs

They need to use the NFDs to permanently retrain their habits to eat within TDEE

Some people find mfp is usual training wheels for this
Others find that that it is sufficient to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits,
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones^

Mosely & other fasting experts strongly recommend NO snacking between meals. EVER. Even within TDEE.
Have treats only as part of a meal, NOT as snacks between

Also keep within NHS alocohol limits

I have eaten a lot of yummy food today ahead of tomorrow's fast! Lunch was tons of raw veg and homemade smoked mackerel pate on toasted German rye bread. Then Spanish style chicken, bean and chorizo stew with homemade soda bread and a caramel shortcake for pudding. Very small glass of wine tonight before an early night.

I've probably gone a bit over normal tdee today but I did an hour hiit class first thing, plus a nice walk this afternoon- I'm at 15000 steps so far.

Tomorrow FD I'll get up early for my 6.30 spin class, then nothing until a small mug of miso soup and a little bit of kimchi at lunch, then dinner will be cod wrapped in Parma ham and baked with asparagus and tomatoes, served with wilted spinach.

Good luck to all fasters tomorrow.

👋👋👋 Hello everyone- I haven’t been on here much as life has been a bit hectic. I will try to read the thread properly on my laptop with my specs on later!

Still fasting, another 2kg down - I walked 31 miles last week , very surprised at the number on my Fitbit but thats just from walking around instead of driving. Before I moved to the edge of town I barely moved!

Will check in later but I just wanted to find the thread again as it had dropped off my list.

Is it possible to put on 3 pounds in a couple of days? Normally I wouldn't think much of it only I have eaten soooo much fri, sat and today and now I'm worried 😩 eaten way over my tdee every day since Friday

Congratulations on your SV, Box
That's good you're walking so much instead of driving

Don't worry, JC 3lb of actual fat would take about 9,000 extra calories, so it's very unlikely
You may see a weight gain, but most will be due to undigested food and retained water from excess carbs
A couple of good dumps and an FD tomorrow should get rid of most of that

Sounds a good program, earslaps

How did your weekend go, blossom ?
I hope the pain has improved

Thanks BCF, I am sure that all the walking is a big factor in my changing shape. What is really good about it is that an hour a day is proper active walking, sometimes with nordic poles. My resting heart rate is 66 bpm but on my walks it is getting up to 108 bpm, so an hour of fat burning ... keep walking.

I have just seen your puppy blossom, he is beautiful, I am pleased you are feeling better than when I last checked in on this thread.

box, I've been walking a bit more recently too- dropping the boys at school in the car then walking home and walking back to collect. It's a fast 25 minute walk each day but I bung on headphones and a podcast, feels like such a treat.

I can't do it every day (not when I need the car in the middle of the day for anything), but even a couple of days just adds extra movement to my week. All the hills round here certainly help burn a few calories.

It is fab isn't it Earslaps.

I have subscribed to Audible and just finished listening to Michelle Obama's book. Me too re hills (Yorkshire Dales), I definitely couldn't have a conversation on the up hill bits.

I can still feel my legs/bum from my walk today which was seven miles.

Thanks everyone, it's such a shame that we can't all just support each other and not try to sabotage / derail.... I'd like to think I'm pretty supportive of other people (esp women) and believe we should lift them up and not knock them down but then my dh does say that's because I'm a militant old feminist

harriet there must have been something in the air Fri eh? Hope your Sunday fast was successful?

box what fantastic progress

jc you'll be fine after a couple of good fds.

Nfd today as have pilates tonight and not brave enough to try on fd.... then fd I think Tues and possibly fri.

Good luck Mon fasters

Good luck, Monday fasters !

Enjoy your Pilates, 43

you know what bcf I am actually enjoying it, just need to find another class and feel I need to do it more often than once a week!

Morning all

Going for Monday FD here, attending a funeral tomorrow (friends grandad) so wont do it then.

Well done to any successful FDs and SVs too... box I remember yours, fab progress!

Glad the walking love is spreading! Didn't get out for one this weekend (was gardening instead) and missed it... will drag the kids for another one for mothers day Haha!

43 glad to hear you are enjoying pilates, it's always good to find something you enjoy

Ah box it's lovely (if painful!) feeling muscles wake up the day after exercise.

I'm fasting today, hopefully tomorrow too. It's the start of what may be a slightly challenging two weeks - I'm on the organising committee of a big local arts festival, in charge of (of course!) catering. So there's a certain amount of stress and chaos, but also exposure to lots and lots of yummy local food. I will try to arrange my FDs accordingly to allow me to indulge sometimes.

Good luck today mrd and any other Monday fasters.