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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Borris · 14/03/2019 15:06

I’ve decided to go alcohol free until Easter. I’ve no events coming up and I do find no alcohol results in much better losses. Not sure whether it’s the alcohol calories, or the loss of discipline re snacks with alcphol or if it alters metabolism

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 19:11

Fund You'll always find a welcome here when you're ready again, maybe after BF Smile

Good luck on your weigh-in MrD
but even if it doesn't happen this time, you'll crack that milestone very soon !

Nothing exciting just means you're on plan, Lania Smile

That's an excellent plan, Borris
(just don't compensate by increasing chocolate or other sugary treats)

Many people find alcohol is what helped put on weight and / or stops them losing easily

Main reasons:

  • Alcohol, as well as its own calories, tends psychologically to lead to nibbling, especially on calorie-dense treats
    and it can be surprising how many nibbles are consumed without realising

  • Alcohol stops your body burning fat - for several hours if you have a few - because your liver priorities processing the toxic byproducts of alcohol

  • Late night drinking delays the onset of the overnight fast - which is crucial for weight loss
    Alcohol may indeed prevent any fast at all, as your body burns the alcohol (transformed to acetate) for fuel, instead of body fat

  • Your body doesn't treat all calories equally
    Excess alcohol, like added sugar, is stored preferentially as fat around the waist

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 19:15

Sounds delic, heroine
If you add a bit of protein to your pasta, you'd feel fuller and probably need less of it
A standard portion is 80-100g cooked weight (woman) / 100-120g (man)

I hope you enjoyed lunch out, 43

OP posts:
YourSarcasmIsDripping · 14/03/2019 21:01

I really struggled with the carbs today. Weighed a portion of mash by the guidelines and it was just so little. (Probably enough for a normal person though).

And then things really went downhill. Not a good day even for NFD , but hopefully I'll get in the right state of mind tomorrow. I could blame many things, but tbh I just had no will power today.

I also decided to set up small goals rather than ideal weight as that is a very long away and sounds scary and rather depressing...that I still have so much to lose.

On the bright side,I have lost a bit which is nice after stagnating for so long. Just sucks that even that is not enough to make just say no,I'm not having that.

nolongersurprised · 14/03/2019 21:30

43 you’re right, my excessive weeing with FD 1 did lead to a good SV victory, I’m 1 kilo down to 67.3. It’s a big loss for me now, I only lost 300g last week. Maybe 3-4 kg to go? I still have a chunk of excess over my stomach and hips, it’s not a roll as much as a thickening.

Good luck to all the Friday fasters and the finishing off Thursday fasters. I have DH to thank for a great FD yesterday - he ate all the chocolate in the house (not much though) after his 3km swim.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 21:38

Congratulations on your SV, surprised

I suggest you have waist as an equal goal to weight
Have you reached measure waist

Dripping When you have quite a long way to go, it's best to set up lots of mini-goals, e.g. every 5kg or 10lb
and major milestones, such as dropping into a lower weight class

Then you can choose non-food rewards for each

This really helps motivation, e.g. MrD thrives on this system of mini-goals & rewards

Mash is calorie-dense and also quite high GI, because it is like "pre-chewed"
You'd find boiled / baked potato, including wedges, more satisfying
Same for other veg - more filling when you chew them

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 21:43

oops, iPad cut off editing to surprised Blush

Measure waist at (women) the narrowest point usually 2" above the navel / (men) at the navel

Have you reached the 1st waist goal, of it being less than half your height ?
e.g. if you are 63", then waist < 31.5"

If you think you still have excess fat around your middle, then you can monitor this

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 15/03/2019 02:29

My height is 169cm and waist 74cm. I have always had a small upper body and small breasts (bigger post 4DC and extended breastfeeding). My extra weight is noticeable around my waist band and I still have some back fat. My frame is small/medium sized and I can see the extra fat sort of hanging off it. After each child I settled back at about 64kg which looked about right and I couldn’t feel the extra when I bent down.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2019 07:16

That's fantastic surprised

Yes lunch was lovely thanks bcf I swerved the saag paneer with rice and chips and had a chicken breast salad with olives and a dollop of potato salad, was delicious.

Ooh fingers crossed mrd hope you get the sv you need.

Fd today and I'm on the train with a rather loud rumbling belly Blush skinny latte to get me through to lunch (subway salad and sf jelly) no idea yet what's for dinner.

Good luck Fri fasters

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2019 07:18

Oh and borris I agree with you re: alcohol, for me it's the lack of discipline that sneaks in, good luck going dry for a bit!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2019 07:20

sarcasm don't dwell on it, it happens to us all, hope today is a better day Smile

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 15/03/2019 07:44

Going to try a mini FD today to counter balance. The weekend is going to be the real challenge..too much time and food.Grin wish me luck.

OohMrDarcy · 15/03/2019 09:27

Morning all

DS is back at school - huzzah!

Friday FD for me - I've got a lovely bag of sainsburys bgty cesar salad ready to munch my way through!

Sarcasm and 43 completely agree on the booze - its the munchies that often come with it for me! As a result I think I've only drunk twice this year so far - saving it for when I really want to and with food.

surprised - that is an ace whoosh when you've not got far to go! And your waist is under half your height too so looking pretty healthy!

Laniakea · 15/03/2019 09:35

FD here, still nothing exciting happening! Hope everyone has a good day :)

Earslaps · 15/03/2019 11:32

NFD here but it has been very active so far! Did a 6.15am hiit class, school run then an hour of football! So much fun.

I'm just cruising around the 10st mark, so 7lbs gone since I started back again on 5:2 at the start of Feb (one week off over half term). I'm really hoping to get my body fat percentage a bit lower, it would be nice to get under the 25% mark. And a little bit more muscle to up the TDEE a bit would always be welcome! So even though I'm thinking it would be nice to lose another 7lbs I'm focusing more on the body fat percentage and being generally fitter (it's so much easier to move your body around when you don't have the extra weight!).

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2019 12:08

Good luck, Friday fasters !

earslaps Your HIIT & football are both excellent to help burn that last bit of bodyfat

As you want a bit more muscle, you need to lift some weights, or do bodyweight lifts
Is there a gym where you can lift, either free weights on your own, or do a pump / lifting or pilates class ?
If not, then Shred is another possibility

Everyone: I can post links again to free YouTube routines of all sorts: shred, glutes, abs, martial arts etc

OP posts:
Earslaps · 15/03/2019 15:00

@BigChocFrenzy unfortunately I do not build muscle easily. I spent ages doing weights with the accompanying protein and I could barely ever up my weights or reps after the first few weeks. It got quite demotivating after a bit and I stopped exercising for a while.

So I'm focusing on exercises I enjoy- spin will help build some muscles in my legs on the hill climb sections, Blaze has a weights section in it (a bit like shred) and I do one weights session a week when I can and do an all over workout with kettlebells.

heroineinahalfshell · 15/03/2019 17:23

NFD for me today, planning a nice bit of non-takeaway fish and chips for tea (supermarket breaded cod, homemade sweet potato fries, peas). A nice treat! I've had a small SV with a 1.5lb loss this week. Did a home HIIT workout yesterday and today my bum is in agony! In a good way tho. I can really start to see a change in my shape now - firmer bum, smaller hips, loss of back fat. Now to work on the belly roll & bingo wings!

Earslaps · 15/03/2019 17:41

Yay, great SV @heroineinahalfshell! We're having fish and chips tonight too, but from a takeaway. Considering I'm on 22,000 steps today and counting I'm going to enjoy them!

OohMrDarcy · 15/03/2019 17:54

Kitchen closed on 470 today

Had a massive salad with grilled halloumi for lunch, and a single egg plain omelette for dinner.

Fab SV - well done heroine.

Hope you both enjoy your fish and chip dinners!

Fingers are crossed for weigh in tomorrow morning

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2019 18:42

Well done on your FD, MrD

Excellent SV and shape NSV, heroine
Exercise can be transforming . It works particularly well for some people, known as "exercise responders"
Others, possibly earslaps, don't respond to some / all types of exercise

Your bum should be fine in 2-3 days
and as you get fitter, you'll just experience a mild stiffness after exercise

Well done on the steps, earslaps

OP posts:
Laniakea · 15/03/2019 19:21

Congratulations on the SV heroineinahalfshell!

I did a kettlebell class this morning & was so knackered I accidentally slept for two hours afterwards! 😳 Only just got 10k steps as a result. And yes my arse really hurts!

FD finished on 518 ... coffee & Caesar salad (craving it since MrD mentioned it this morning).

heroineinahalfshell · 15/03/2019 20:39

Aww thanks guys! Yes Frenzy diet on its own never works for me, always has to be diet + exercise. Laniekea I'm vv impressef you can do exercise on a FD! I think i'd pass out Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2019 20:40

Well done on your sv heroine

Well done mrd and laniakea
Fd done here slightly higher than I'd like (670) but I've made it. Girlie weekend away tomorrow so look away now bcf as lots of Gin Wine and probably a bazillion other calories will be consumed Shock

Good luck for your weigh in tomorrow mrd

OMGithurts · 15/03/2019 21:32

I posted a few days ago. Weighed myself since then, I've put on a full stone in 6 months Shock so am 13 stone 8 at 5'7", horrifying. Managed 600 cal FD on weds and a 700 cal one today, which isn't too terrible a start point, I think, as DC2 is still breastfeeding at least 3 times a day, more if he's feeling grotty.