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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/03/2019 08:25

stay strong spotty and keep posting here for motivation, you will be fine I'm sure, just keep saying the 5:2 mantra when it gets tough - "I can have it tomorrow" Grin

OohMrDarcy · 13/03/2019 08:47

Morning all,

pretty tired here - DS up being sick all night... lovely.

Heroine - loving the username! As others have said - up that cal intake on NFD a bit - at least to goal TDEE, yours currently seems pretty low! Even if you up to 1500 / 1600 it will feel much more sustainable for you!

Good luck Spotty, plenty of water and plenty of distractions for you today!

nolongersurprised · 13/03/2019 11:21

Hi everyone,

Wed night here, will do FD number 2 tomorrow. Tuesday was a weird FD in that I had heaps to drink but felt like I was just weeing off some residual water retention. It’s continued into today a bit, hopefully will translate to a SV on Friday. (I’m not excessively thirsty and I’m neither diabetic nor prediabetic).

Thursday’s I work so I usually have a couple of eggs at 9am then nothing till tea. Not sure what I’ll have yet, I am finding brown rice plus protein plus vege stops me being super hungry.

spotty once I get to 1-2 pm I just remind myself that I’ll be eating a fairly normal amount in 4 hours and that really helps. Plus, it’s worth it because it works and there’re only 2 days of deprivation rather than second guessing every meal.

GrannyPenny · 13/03/2019 11:21

My first FD back yesterday came in just under 600, so perfectly happy with that.

Oh dear MrDarcy - hope your DS bounces back too. Fingers crossed you escape it ...

How's it going Spotty? FDs take a bit of time to get used to - I found the first couple okay but the third was difficult which was a bit of a shock. Guess my brain was saying "not this again" - much the same way as my 3 year old DGC doesn't want to walk to the shops. "I want a carry Granny, i'm tired". Nope, not going to happen. "Lets have a race DGC - I'm going to be the winner!" "No Granny, I'm going to be the winner!" and off we go, thoughts of tiredness forgotten.

Heroine - I second what MrDarcy said about a1200 cal limit. See how you go, but be open to modify if you need to.

Sunny but very windy here - shall I go for a short run or not? Decisions decisions.

heroineinahalfshell · 13/03/2019 11:47

Thanks for the tips everyone! May have to reassess TDEE cals as at the moment i feel like i'm overindulging at weekends (but not hungry on 1200 days, just missing treats!) I'm not adjusting cals for exercise.
Agree with nolongerdeprived that its must more sustainable only restricting 2 days per week rather than 7!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 11:56

Well done on your 1st FD back, granny

heroine If you genuinely don't feel hungry on weekday NFDs, then that's ok not to eat more
You may be burning a lot of fat for fuel atm
and your weekends may well be quite a lot over TDEE, to compensate

  • but don't go mad with sugary treats or alcohol at the WE either; try to have just one on Sat and one on Sun

If you find on any NFD that you are hungry, then do eat more that day

  • you should feel pleasantly satisfied, not stuffed, not hungry except in the hour before a meal
OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/03/2019 12:39

oh dear mrd hope ds is feeling better and that you both get an early night....

nolonger i have had some weeks like that and I've had my best losses, so fingers crossed for a happy step on the scales for you this week Grin

Just broken yesterday's FD with a bowl of chicken and veg soup, a wee bit of bread and butter and some berries with honey greek yogurt for afters, it was delicious....

Earslaps · 13/03/2019 13:06

FD going well here. I've had plenty of green tea and I have a tofu and kimchi salad to eat for lunch.

The Boditrax machine at the gym is finally fixed, so I hopped on and I'm pretty pleased with the results so far. My overall body fat is 26.9% (mostly in my legs, which is strange to me as I'm not your typical pear shape and tend to gain around the middle and on my arms rather than on my bum/hips) with a visceral fat reading of 3%. Apparently my metabolic age is 28, so not bad for 39!

I also got DH to use it and he was fairly pleased- measuring his weight puts him firmly into the obese BMI, but the boditrax supports his claims that it's mostly muscle Grin. He has a visceral fat level of 11%, so despite his big tummy it's still considered an acceptable level. He does have high body fat for a man, but then he's working on that. He's planning to continue to use that to track how he's doing rather than just the scales- it's pretty depressing for him that even if he got to 8% body fat (super fit levels) he'd still be considered 'overweight'.

Also discovered that his BMR is 1,100 calories higher than mine, so even if I do a ton of exercise each day I would only just burn the amount he burns sitting on the sofa!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 13:42

That's good news from Boditrax, earslaps you young thing 😀

Your DH should concentrate on

  • his waist measurement (measured at the navel for men)
  • his fat %, especially his visceral fat %

He shouldn't aim for sub-25 BMI, since he is so muscular
However, he would probably end up one BMI class lower, i.e. overweight, if he works on the above 2 parameters

His TDEE being 1100 above yours is what I would expect from a large, muscular man

Rough guide Bodyfat Men & Women

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind
5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind
OP posts:
YourSarcasmIsDripping · 13/03/2019 16:33

Impromptu FD today as I have a nice dinner planned for tomorrow. Had my red bull and my yogurt so I think dinner will be boiled eggs ,tomatoes and cucumbers. Maybe lick a slice of bread Grin

heroineinahalfshell · 13/03/2019 18:16

Has anyone made a bone broth for drinking on FDs? I've heard its a good idea but not sure about basically drinking stock!

PissPotPourri · 13/03/2019 19:18

Hi all, nfd here before fd tomorrow. Have had an office day and hardly moved other than to go for a wee or two so have just had a big smoked salmon salad for tea while the family had chicken and chips.
Am still feeling dreadful. A bastard of a sore throat and a banging head for nearly three weeks now. Have finally given in and booked a doctor's appointment for Friday. I know what she'll say... A virus.. Just wait it out.
Anyway, also wanted to say I'm also 40 this year. But in the Autumn, so let's call me young....just for the summer?

fiddletree · 13/03/2019 19:44

You're definitely still young, PissPot! I am adamantly still "in my thirties", and will be so right up until the day before my Bday! In denial, me? Hope you're feeling better soon.

Haven't read up the thread apart from a few posts, sorry, but just wanted to post quickly to make myself feel better. Ugh. I weighed in after my 2nd FD this week and I've only lost 200g over the last week. I know it's ridiculous but I sort of feel discouraged because I found the FDs quite hard this time, but was very "good" and haven't even had any alcohol or sugar on NFD. I guess the whole process is slowing down a bit - and that it's probably due to nearing goal weight, and BFing. Also that I lost quite quickly at first. Trying to take everyone's advice as given above and not sound like a broken record and just watch the general trend. Obviously this is quite an ongoing challenge for me, haha. Call me achievement-driven!

SpottyDuvet · 13/03/2019 19:55

Hello!

Today has been v busy thank God - so baked potato for lunch (tiny and weighed) and the mish mash for dinner without the protein. I have a bastard headache despite unprecedented levels of water drinking and can’t find the marmite but it is at least stopping me from gnawing on the sofa cushions.

Noted about the third FD! GrannyPenny I will gird my loins! Thank you for the tips all - so helpful.

fiddletree · 13/03/2019 20:19

Sorry, me again. Just wanted to say sorry all for being a bit of a downer earlier. I think it's TOTM, which is probably why I"m feeling a bit low in mood, and also fluid retention.

I guess this whole process is revealing how much the weight stuff is tied to emotion for me. My goal is to rethink this more as WOL and healthiness, etc. instead of fixating on numbers.

As you were. Blush

harriethoyle · 13/03/2019 21:27

Mini FD for me, by mistake because I got home too late to eat properly and only got a banana for lunch! so coming in at 960.

Nice to be back in the groove.

Well done on your fasts @earslaps @yoursarcasm and @spotty!

Earslaps · 13/03/2019 21:31

@fiddletree we all have those low moments! If you are fixating on weight then maybe either reduce how often you weigh or put the scales away and just measure your waist with a tape measure once a month.

Lovely FD meal of feta, sun dried tomato and spinach omelette followed by an apple. Feel very satisfied by that.

Too busy to exercise today so I'm off to the gym first thing tomorrow to fit in a quick spin class.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 07:47

fiddle Successful weight loss & weight management depend on persistence & patience

It is what happens over the longterm that counts,
so "results-driven" should mean focusing on this, not on the weekly blips that are inevitable on any diet, but meaningless

I advise against weighing during totm, because the results are often misleading

The hormonal changes cause water retention, which is enough to outweigh the average 1lb loss
and show sts or even a gain

If you still managed a small loss, near to goal and BF, then you are doing well.

The FD after the end of totm normally releases the retained water
so if you avoid the totm munchies and comfort eating, you may see a good loss then

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2019 08:00

Well done, earslaps, dripping, harriet, spotty and all the other Wednesday fasters

spotty Hunt out the Marmite and keep it handy for FDs
a teasp mid-morning & afternoon helps avoid headaches and weakness
it will replenish salt & minerals that may be low while your body is adapting^
and also boost B vits

miso soup works too

I hope your lurgie goes soon, pot
It's a good idea to get checked out by the doc, you might be iron-deficient, all sorts of things like that can keep you ill.

heroine The occasional 5:2er has tried bone broth
It's healthy enough as a broth or soup, but a faff to make
Most folk just grab an ordinary ready-made soup

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/03/2019 08:29

don't apologise fiddle but agree maybe weigh less frequently?
earslaps that tea sounds lovely, mmmmm

Hope you are feeling better today piss and you too spotty

Nfd here, think i'm out for lunch with a friend so no idea what that will be yet, for dinner we are having chicken skewers with couscous and salad (dh and ds will also have pitta breads) FD#2 planned for tomorrow

Hope everyone has a good day

heroineinahalfshell · 14/03/2019 08:46

NFD today, have had a lovely warming bowl of porridge for breakfast. Chicken wrap for lunch and pasta norma (pasta with an aubergine, basil & garlic tomato sauce) for dinner. Will try to stick to 60g pasta but i do love pasta so we'll see if i go up to 75! Working from home today so will do a zumba workout at lunch. Weigh-in day tomorrow so hoping for a SV! DH weighed today and has lost 2lb.

OohMrDarcy · 14/03/2019 10:07

Morning all

NFD whilst WFH with recovering DS today.

Pasta for dinner so I'm just working out the cals on that so I can ensure a good lunch. FD will be tomorrow and I'm really hoping to achieve my next milestone (and a mega one it is too)

Laniakea · 14/03/2019 11:01

Ooh good luck for that milestone MrD!

NFD here. Nothing exciting happening Grin

DontFundHate · 14/03/2019 14:22

@big thank you so much for your reply. Sorry for the delay in replying I've been mulling over what you said since, and I think you're right that with bf I just can't sustain a weight loss at the moment. I'm planning to keep bf for now, and will think about 5:2 again after that. In the meantime I'll take on board all the healthy eating tips. Thanks all and will be back to join you all sometime! :)

Borris · 14/03/2019 15:04

Lots of us NFD today. Going ok for me too. Have had muesli for breakfast, marmite on toast for lunch and then planning gammon, new potatoes and lots of veg for dinner. I do have a little syrup sponge that dd and I might share as pudding if I fancy it