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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 12:55

MrD Very unimaginative, but I'm a salad junkie at lunch (my main meal)

  • even in winter I have grilled salmon strips & a big salad with naice vinaigrette, 2-3 x weekly
then Tiger prawns or steak strip the other days
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 14:03

Yum, I just got comped a delic choc mousse at my fav restaurant 😀
(lunch 3-4 days per week there)
they have a superb chef and regularly win the regional food prize.

5:2 has made me very particular about what I eat
Only good quality food deserves to go into my bod, including the occasional pud

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 12/03/2019 14:04

DD is pretty good with salad, I can imagine keeping her happy with lots of that kind of thing - chicken strips / salad / wedges for eg.....

DS not so much! He'll eat cucumber and raw carrot sticks.

I'm not really into salad myself, I can do the carrot / cucumber / caesar salad options but they get boring. And lots of my standby meals no one fancies making in the summer.... hum! I'll work something out

harriethoyle · 12/03/2019 17:30

I'm back! After 10 glorious days off piste celebrating my 40th, I have hauled myself back on the wagon Grin fasting today. God, it's hard compared to numerous champagne brunches!! Wine

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/03/2019 17:35

Mmm bcf hope you enjoyed every mouthful Smile

I love salads also so looking forward to the weather warming up.

Welcome back harriet sounds like you had a wonderful 40th celebration Cake

harriethoyle · 12/03/2019 17:47

It was fabulous thank you @fortythree... and I looked FABULOUS if I do say so myself!

OohMrDarcy · 12/03/2019 17:53

Good to see you back Harriet, 10 days of celebrations whilst feeling fab and confident sounds perfect! Well done jumping back on the wagon.

Kitchen closed on 520 here today

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/03/2019 18:20

Fantastic harriet Grin

Fd done here on about 560, I'm v v hungry though and have a cracking headache even though I've drank loads of water today!

Well done mrd and all the other Tues fasters Smile

Borris · 12/03/2019 18:52

Well done all Tuesday fasters.
I’ve done ok today too.

Does anyone know whether balsamic vinegar is a better FD salad dressing than a low cal vinaigrette? I had a bit on my salad and it was very delicious

GrannyPenny · 12/03/2019 19:06

Crikey Tuesday fasters - its not yet 7.00 p.m. and you're all done for the day? Am in awe of your self-control between now and bedtime!

My FD is going. That's as good as I can come up with at the moment. Exercise class was hard this morning and I got soaked this afternoon when the heavens opened up just as I was getting off a train with no cover. The wind is bitter and i'm still trying to warm up with my hands round a hot coffee despite being back home for an hour. Looking forward to my dinner in a couple of hours. Just about to prep for my next sourdough loaf to keep my hands busy.

EssentialHummus · 12/03/2019 19:26

Kitchen closed (sorry granny, another one Grin) - one 280 cal ready meal and pile of veg, coffees, rice cracker (30 cal) with tbsp of jam (60).

granny is that a very late dinner or are you outside the UK?

harriet that sounds wonderful, welcome back!

Well done mrd, 43, borris.

I agree bigchoc about being particular about what you eat. I find I now have a moment of "Hold on, is it worth the calories?" before I buy it/eat it, which I enjoy.

Another useful lesson today, thanks to my smart watch, is that actually my activity levels are slightly higher than I'd estimated (it's an Apple watch that does steps, calories, amount of standing, exercise, heart rate, so I hope it's reasonably accurate). I won't amend my eating/calories as a result, but it's nice to know. I'm at home with toddler DD most of the time, so there's a lot of running around, chasing the bus, pushing prams uphill etc.

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 12/03/2019 19:45

Somehow I'm hungrier today (NFD) than yesterday (FD) . Don't even really know if it's hunger ,just an urge to eat (I get them sometimes). My scales are acting up too so that's not helping.

harriethoyle · 12/03/2019 20:19

Kitchen closing on 579! I'll take that. Limited cals tomorrow albeit not a FD. Brew

GrannyPenny · 12/03/2019 20:28

Am in UK Essential and yes i'm a late eater, always have been (but don't tell BigChoc).

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 20:52

That sounds an amazng celebration, Harriet

Well done on your FD, MrD, 43, Borris, Hummus, harriet

< hurries up granny >

Dripping Have a glass of water and clean your teeth.
Floss if you do that
and mouthwash too

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 20:56

That's good policy not to up the calories, Hummus
Even top-rated gadgets have been shown to overestimate exercise, often by up to 15%

Best to use Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others : Calc TDEE

If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think.

Granny As well as rain, we have had 100kph winds the last several days
Oddly with a lot of sunny intervals

OP posts:
fiddletree · 12/03/2019 22:28

Well done on all the amazing FDs - such stamina! I'm on my 2nd for the week today. Usually I don't feel that hungry before lunch, but today I am STARVING. Only an hour to go before some konjac noodles, green beans, tofu, maybe a wee bit of smoked salmon.

Your celebration sounds fab, Harriet! Happy Birthday! It's my 40th next month, which is one of the reasons I've started on the 5:2 track. Hoping to get back to my pre-preg size by then. I think I'm pretty well on track.... love how confident you sound. I want to feel like that!

Have postponed all weighing this week until tomorrow morning. Wish me luck...

Borris · 12/03/2019 22:30

Loving all the 40th birthdays. It’s mine in the summer too!

heroineinahalfshell · 12/03/2019 22:55

Hi, can I joinin? Been doing 5:2 for 3 weeks and have lost half a stone, and lost 10lb total since Jan. I'm sticking to 1200 cals on most NFD (TDEE is 1896), altho I find it harder to do that Sat&Sun! Doesn't help that I have a lovely DH who keeps buying us creme eggs & pastries on NFD. But pleased with progress so far. I've got at least 1.5, maybe 2 stone to go.
Today was NFD and I managed 1294 cals (including a creme egg Blush) and did an hour of Zumba (I don't adjust for exercise or I'd never lose any weight!)

Tomorrow is FD and I've planned:
B: hard boiled egg (72 cals)
L: large salad with 1tbsp pumpkin seeds & slice of chicken breast & squeeze of lemon juice (128 cals)
D: venison steak with 100g new potatoes, savoy cabbage and a bit of bisto. (250 cals).
If I need a snack it'll be carrots/celery so should come in under 500 cals. I'm quite good at sticking to calorie counts but tend to always have the same thing on FDs, looking forward to seeing what other people eat on FDs!

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 13/03/2019 07:24

Welcome hero and good luck on your FD day.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/03/2019 07:47

welcome hero and well done on your SVs so far....

I would say to make this a sustainable WOE and given that you are eating to only 1200 on your NFDs (so have nearly 700cals surplus everyday), that you can indulge a little more on the weekends without it affecting your weight loss? You might start to feel too deprived / restricted if you limit your nfds so much?

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 07:48

Quite a few 40th birthdays around, I see
(tends to be the age at which we need to ramp up weight management)

Welcome, heroine 🙂
and congratulations on your SV

Mosely intended the NFDs to be mostly maintenance days,
so if you feel hungry on NFDs, I recommend you eat up to your TDEE, around 1900, for sustainability of this WOE for you.
At least one NFD weekly do this, to keep your metabolic rate high

It's a good idea to keep pastries & sweet junk to occasional treats, as you are doing, also alcohol,

  • these type of calories are especially prone to slowing weight loss.

Best to use Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others : Calc TDEE
If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think.

On NFDs, remember not to eat back exercise calories, as you are already allowing for these via TDEE
FDs have NO calorie allowance for exerise

On FDs, I usually have the same thing too:
grilled salmon strips or steak strips, with a big salad

OP posts:
Earslaps · 13/03/2019 07:51

Another one who turns 40 this year! I'm in the summer too @Borris. I would say it's a coincidence, but I suspect the impending big birthday has prompted many of us to shift some weight/get fitter etc.

@heroineinahalfshell welcome to the board. I would suggest you eat a bit more on NFDs. This is supposed to be a sustainable way of life, so cutting calories and fasting is likely to make you struggle and then quit. Most of us eat to just a little below our TDEE on NFDs and save a little more for the weekend.

Having a Wednesday FD this week rather than the normal Thursday. DH has a big meeting tomorrow so we've both switched our day. That should make my 6.15am class on Friday a bit easier too if I haven't been fasting the day before.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 07:52

Someone upthread asked about salad dressing
balsamic vinegar vs vinaigrette

Both are fine - the vinaigrette should be made with olive oil or algae oil, for maximum health benefits

On their own, balsamic vinegar - or apple cider vinegar - are especially good on FDs, when you may have too few calories to spare for oil.

lemon juice is another good choice

OP posts:
SpottyDuvet · 13/03/2019 08:00

Good morning! FD today - I think I will do a sort of chickpea / tinned toms / spinach mishmash with chicken or fish.

Starting weight is 84.9kg.

Will doubtless come on here later, squealing about how hungry I am and how unfair it all is etc etc.

Happy fasting!