5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Congratulations on your SV, Box
That's good you now have reliable scales again

Groovie For some people, 5:2 does take away the urge to snack.
Also, if you are burning fat well, then your body would be using this for fuel
So, it sounds promising

Mozz As you are allowed 650 daily for b2b and only had under 500 for FD1, you can have 800 for FD2
Some people plan this deliberately, because they find it easier to have a more generous FD2

I suggested it some time ago, as a perfectly acceptable b2b variation
The logic is that the 2 days should total 1300, so since you start FD2 already fasted, you can divide that 1300 to have more on FD2

btw, if you prefer classic 5:2 with single FDs, that's fine too - whatever system is sustainable for you

Fund For b2b, if you prefer 800 FDs, that's fine if it works for you.
However, I recommend against increasing calories over 800, as they then become miniFDs and most people need more than 2 miniFDs to lose at a decent rate

(BFers have different rules and probably shouldn't b2b anyway)

Some people have 800 cal FDs to ease in / for BFing / because their TDEE is very high / they are on maintenance / they prefer it

This is because Mosely found 5:2 with 800 cals works for those with high TDEE, or who don't mind slower loss

b2b is not Mosely's 5:2
b2b was developed by Dr Michelle Harvie before Mosely started - in fact he used some of her research

Her research was funded by UK cancer research charities and was aimed at helping overweight women at risk of breast cancer return
She found that b2b FDs of 650 cals reduced more weight than classic daily dieting and also reduced the markers for health risks

Those on daily low carb should have 800 cal FDs, because the combination of fasting and low carb is very powerful and 500 cals would be too tough

Mosely is now focused more on 800 cals, because
his more recent work has been using low carb fasting in particular to help those at risk of T2, or to reverse T2

Thanks for the support, Quacking, Hummus, 43, BigChoc and others. Also, amazing work on the long-term weight loss, 43, Darcy and Box. So incredible, and so motivating. And happy birthday Lania! My 40th is coming up, which is part of my desireto get back in shape; but there’s also the difficulty of being good around the treats of birthday season…

Don’t – I tend to be quite all or nothing too, which is probably why I gained a fair bit this second pregnancy (I decided I was finally free from being careful about food!). I’m basing my 800 for FD on a very quick read of the new Fast 5:2, so didn’t actually know that the original diet had 500 cal allowance for FD. I think I’d find that pretty unbearable while BFing, even if just overnight. I really like the idea that you can take it a bit at your own pace, as BigChoc said, depending on how quickly you want to lose or whether you’re just maintaining.

Just finished my second FD (I’m in southern hemisphere, hence time difference to you all!). I am pinching myself I feel so different. First FD was such a slog and I felt so deprived and so low the next day, but this was SO much easier. Barely any cravings to speak of. I’m sure it’s just a temporary high, but I woke up feeling so clear headed, and far less tired, even though the baby had an awful night and we didn’t get much sleep. Placebo effect, or the magic of ketosis? I don’t care, it’s great and I feel so much more positive than I have in a while!

Hey, slim you and slim batteries too Box ! Watch it, we’re all going to be jealous of you.

Good for you with your FD Mozz and your successful NFD too 43.

All the best with your fresh start tomorrow Dont. And what a lovely, inspiring start to the day Fiddle. 😊

Again thanks for the explanation BCF. It’s almost like having a personality change to not keep having urges to snack. I am pleased but wary because it doesn’t feel like I’m me! 😊

I crashed and burned on yesterday's FD!! First time for AGES I've tried and failed on one 🤦🏻‍♀️ Never mind. Stayed within tdee at least...! clutches at straws 😂

@fortythree and @box that is fab-u-lous!!

Harriet you haven't failed, just postponed the FD and you stayed within TDEE....

fiddle well done on your fd, some are much easier than others and more often than not I find the same as you in that I wake up feeling physically and mentally sharper

groovie the no snacking thing was a revelation for me, it really does all make sense and I feel so much better when I don't snack....

Nfd today and looking to save another few hundred calories for the weekend,
B - skinny vanilla latte
L - turkey subway salad and FF yogurt
D - I think we are meant to be having chicken stir fry

Good luck thursday fasters

Good luck Thursday fasters
18C here, so I'm off now to enjoy a sunny Rhine walk

Don't worry, Harriet it happens to us all sometimes
and you did well to stay within TDEE

Another 5:2 mantra: 😏
"An FD is never failed, merely postponed"

fiddle Mosely, Varady and other fasting experts all say BFers shoudn't do 500 FDs

Hence our advice here of 1000 for EBF, 700-1000 for other BF.

Morning all

Another NFD here - sausage casserole in the slow cooker for tonights dinner, yummy!

Quacking - well done on the no crap in the shopping, always a good thing! Good luck for Friday, I was there last year with DD and was so stressed!

pop - wouldn't worry about the 1lb increase if I were you... we all know our bodies fluctuate constantly.

Well done on the SV groovie!

Box - don't worry about not always acknowledging people individually, many of us are the same. I try to make myself post from laptop at least once a week to make it easier! Well done on the SV!

43 - looks like you are back in the swing with those NFDs - well done!

Mozz - think its already been said, but do have up to 650 on a B2B!

Don'tFund - Keep going , but make it work for you - you may find that b2bs aren't for you, they are pretty hardcore!

Fiddle - well done on the FDs

Harriet - no crashing and burning happened... you postponed

My flowers are lovely thanks BigChoc - a font of all wisdom as always

Jeans NSV today - I bought some size 18s a month or so back to look forward to being able to wear.... I'm wearing them today and feeling so good! I was getting fed up of my 20's needing to be yanked up constantly should keep me going a few more weeks at least, have plenty of 16/ 18 spring and summer stuff I think from last time I lost!

fantastic NSV mrd all those inches gone

That's a motivating new jeans NSV, MrD

• we don't want an Old Jeans Fell Down NSV 😂

I enjoyed my sunny walk so much, I've been inspired to nip back for my running togs, to do some fartlek sprints - those are for people who cba to time their intervals !

Must make the most of it, as rain forecast for tomorrow

Enjoy your sprints BigChoc - the lovely weather has left us here - windy / cloudy at the moment and rain due after lunch - for the next 10 days!

ooh enjoy the weather bcf grey, cold and miserable here in Manchester!

Same down South 43!

It's miserable and grey here too! I walked back from school though, in the rain (school is about a mile away up a big hill, so we drive for school run, but I sometimes leave the car there and walk home and back), so that's a few extra steps for the day.

Checking in for a Thursday FD! nothing but water and green tea so far, will eek that out as long as I can, then have a cup of miso soup. Dinner tonight will be some left over chicken tray bake, with plenty of roasted veg, maybe a nice square of dark chocolate after that. This evening is swimming lessons, which tends to leave me rather frazzled, so hopefully I can make it through the day without screaming at the DC!

I've booked in for a very intense gym class at 6.15am tomorrow, so not quite sure what to do about breakfast tomorrow. I want something that will give me some energy for the class, but that won't sit in my stomach too much to make me feel sick! Plus quick, easy and quiet to make/eat so I don't wake everyone up! Any suggestions? Maybe make a smoothie tonight to quickly drink in the morning before I get ready?

earslaps Healthy fruit & veg smoothie sounds good

Easy recipe:
• either 60 ml natural full-fat Greek yoghurt & 120 ml water
or 230 ml almond milk
• 120 ml chopped raw fruit - choose 1
• 120 ml chopped raw veg - choose 1
• optionally 1/2 Banana - to make it creamier
. optionally 1 tbsp chia seeds to boost fibre & protein
, optionally ¼ tbsp cinammon, ginger etc

e.g.
Avocado / berries / kiwi / Seedless grapes / pineapple / apple with Baby spinach / broccoli florests / carrot

and blimey, you get up at sparrow fart for a 6:15 am gym class < very impressed >

Well I've assembled some carrot cake overnight oats- oats, yogurt, chia seeds, cinnamon, a couple of chopped dates, a grated carrot and a drizzle of maple syrup. I'll see how it tastes tomorrow! If today wasn't a FD I would have no problem setting off without breakfast (regularly do a 6.30am spin class) but after a fast day I'll need to eat before strenuous exercise!

I find exercising in the morning pretty good- no time for excuses to put it off! I pack everything the night before, put my gym clothes ready to get changed into and then go. We live 2 minutes drive from the gym.

Managed to fast all day with just a spoonful of marmite and a gherkin at 2pm, then ate chicken, chorizo and roasted veg on edamame noodles followed by a square of dark chocolate. Will sip chamomile tea all evening before an early night.

Swam a few lengths whilst DC were in their swimming class and then relaxed in the steam room, so feeling good!

Well done to all other fasters today!

Well I am pleased to say I managed to stick to my FD. Spent the evening entertaining myself reading Thighofrelief101's ask me anything threads. Even though her WOL involves a lot of lying around, snacking and drinking wine which is not that ideal for 5:2

I have read all of your posts over the last few days about weekend treats with interest. DH and I always like to treat ourselves to nice meal and several a few glasses of wine on a Friday and Saturday night.
Should this mean I really need to focus on a more of a deficit through the week?

I'm pleased to say I completed my second FD on Wednesday at just over 500 cals. I even sat down to bangers and mash with the kids - I seriously thought I would struggle with eating family meals as I don't want to have them see me eating anything different. Anyway, I loaded my plate with veg, had literally a teaspoon of mash and one sausage. I ended up leaving half of the single sausage and didn't touch the mash! I actually ended up feeling quite full.

Today, has been a bit of a struggle. Have a niggly cold, it's TOTM and was also woken very rudely last night by a ships horn blowing in the thick fog at silly o'clock last night for an hour!

Anyway, I've put in my allotted weekend booze allowance in to MFP already, so I know what I have left to work with food and treat wise! It is actually quite shocking to see how many calories are in alcohol!

@IfAtFirstUDontSucceed if you are managing to lose weight with the weekend wine then you don't need to cut it out. If you are stalling and not losing weight then you might need to either cut back on calories another day or cut down the number of drinks. You make your own rules working around what seems to suit your body.

I managed to lose weight on 5:2 still having weekend wine. I didn't count any calories on weekends, but did keep up healthy habits like cutting back on snacks, replacing some of the carbs in my meals with lots of veg.

Aaargh heavy rain woke me up at this daft hour, machine-gunning my window

succeed It's individual
Some people can lose even with regularly indulgent weekends, especially the first few weeks

A few are "hard losers" - but you'll know from experience of other WOEs if this is you - and can have only one indulgent weekly meal, even then not a binge.
These are usually folk with insulin resistance, whose body can't process large amounts of junky carbs and they do much better with low-moderate carb NFDs

Most folk are in the middle and can find a reasonable balance between treats and losing

If you are losing at a pace that satisfies you, then keep to what works for you
If weight loss is too slow, or slows down later, then I'd advise cutting down on alcohol / sugary treats.

Calories are not equal in the way your body processes them:

On any diet, alcohol shuts down fat-burning for several hours because the liver prioritises processing the toxic byproducts
Sugar also stops fat-burning for a while
You may burn enough fat the rest of the time on 5:2 for this to still leave a decent loss

Excess alcohol and sugar are stored as fat preferentially around the middle, so apple shapes need to be more watchful
If your excess weight is evenly distributed, or on your legs, then you can generally get away with more of these treats.

Of course, as you get older, your body's tolerance for junk reduces, insulin resistance increases, especially with peri / meno
This is a big reason, along with lower TDEE, why people notice that they can't lose as easily as they used to and have to adjust what they eat & drink.

If it's got to rain, at least it could be decent enough to be more quiet. Anyway ....

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🎺🎺 We have a NEW 5:2 / IF Thread #84 🎺🎺
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