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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2019 16:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
PopGoesTheWeaz · 21/01/2019 22:11

I think that came up about cornflakes on a QI once

Borris · 21/01/2019 22:43

Interesting about the whole breakfast thing. Skipping breakfast on a FD felt so naughty to me at first. I genuinely believed it was the most important meal.

I might skip this weeks weigh in then bcf. It probably won’t be good and I don’t want to demotivate.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 21/01/2019 23:13

Learning some eye-opening things about Mr Kellogg on this thread! Shock

Place-marking! Well done today’s fasters! MrDarcy, you’ll be in a new stone bracket before you know it!

Blossom, that meal looks delicious.

Cheeeeislifenow · 22/01/2019 07:15

Morning all FD 1 of the week today! Starting my day with lemon water as I have been doing every day, I have. Two walks planned for today.
Anyone fasting with me?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/01/2019 07:17

Morning everyone.... shiny new thread, perfect timing for a clean slate after last week Blush was poorly which meant I didn't fast but did eat the world! Anyway, that was last week, managed 2 good meals yesterday and no snacking (yay) fd today...

Well done all the mon fd'ers and all the svs and nsvs I've missed being AWOL for the week!

Iamblossom · 22/01/2019 07:45

Morning all. 2 pounds off but it was trying to be 3...just need to see that number on a Monday now.

My meal was two portobello mushrooms, topped with prawns which I microwaved for 3.5 minutes while I poached two eggs (my fave kind of egg as no one can add anything to them if you cook them in the traditional way) and grilled a large tomato. Delicious and very filling and makes a change from prawn omelette with salad.

DH is obsessed with weight training and has bought a book called lean and strong or something like that. Keeps telling me facts I already know like it is the first time anyone has ever realised. “A calorie is a calorie no matter where it comes from - olive oil is super calorific! - you need a deficit of calories overall to lose weight”.

Really DH Hmm

Iamblossom · 22/01/2019 07:47

Good luck all fasters today.

And sorry but I adore Cereal and have just had two ounces of sultana bran with skimmed milk. I also eat bite size shredded wheat and special k. 5 years on low carb with no bread, potatoes, cereal, rice, pasta etc etc will do that to you...

Iamblossom · 22/01/2019 07:57

Can I just swiftly add that I am not obsessed with masturbation though.

OohMrDarcy · 22/01/2019 08:02

Morning all,

I've never really felt like I needed breakfast. Occasionally on a weekend I'd have brunch, and then a roast about 3pm and that is the nearest I come really.

It's interesting reading this because people have ALWAYS told me that was the reason I wasn't losing weight, and I've just ignored so it is nice to have some info to hit back with should it be needed Smile

Cheddar, that is very true and exciting (it is also my secret hope for this week's weigh in but I'm not saying that out loud!)

43, well done for getting straight back on the horse, here's to a successful FD for you today.

Borris, if TOTM is due then I agree, don't weigh just keep going until it's buggered off!

Blossom that meal looked lovely, 🤞 for your Monday weigh in

Healthy NFD for me today and I'm sure it will be a busy one too - back at site.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 22/01/2019 08:03

Grin at blossom

I’m fasting today too, 43 and cheeeis. Also intending to walk at lunchtime (at least as far as Pret to buy soup).

PeachScone · 22/01/2019 08:08

Can I join?? Started regular gym classes just before Christmas and been trying to eat healthier. Have lost about 7lbs so far and gained some muscle but have another 2 stone to go! I was actually looking at one meal a day as a IF plan but think it would be much to hard to dive in - this looks manageable for where I’m at :) going to try to have FD weds, sat and fri as they are probably easiest in terms of my schedule.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/01/2019 08:56

ha ha blossom I love it when my DH 'mansplains' things to me not Grin

fingers crossed for your weigh in and yours mrd

Welcome peach and well done on your loss so far, good luck with 5:2, keep posting here for lots of support

scruffybarnsley · 22/01/2019 08:59

Happy FDs cheee, 43 and cheddar.

I'm also fasting today but feel a bit out of routine - I normally always, always do a Monday as my first day but it was my birthday yesterday so didn't think it would work! Wasn't actually too bad in the end, and have to be back on it today else I'll let things slide again, so posting for accountability and company!

Delighted by the brekkie talk as I've never liked to eat breakfast and always been highly judged for it so now it's nice to just roll my eyes and tell people to get with the science Wink also what I do when I get judged for fasting!!!!

Good luck fasters!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/01/2019 09:10

happy birthday for yesterday scruffy Cake Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2019 09:17

Well done on your SV, blossom

If he is lecturing you 🤔 then remind your DH that your body does not react the same to all calories:

yes, you need a deficit to lose weight,
but a diet with too many sugary junk / alcohol calories will keep insulin raised, which switches your body away from fat burning and towards fat storage

In particular, too long on a junky diet and many people have insulin resistance - which makes weight loss more difficult even on a good diet - and possibly preT2 heading to T2

Also, the quality of muscle built, if that is his aim, will be hindered by a diet lacking nutrients and too full of things that increase health risks

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2019 09:36

Sorry to hear you had a winter lurgie, 43
Welcome back

MrD I suggest you focus as your next goal, on getting into the 16 stone somethings - great for your morale -
and plan your non-food pampering reward

Happy birthday for yesterday, scruffy 💐
Yup, re breakfast: do what suits your individual bod - have it / don't have it

If anyone skips breakfast as a weight loss tactic, but is still starving,
then I recommend black unsweetened coffee and a few, say 10, unsalted, unflavoured whole almonds
They will add healthy low GI nutrients and get your body into gear - some folk genuinely need something; noone needs sugary crap.

Welcome, peach 🙂
Well done on your exercise and your SV

A couple of VLCD fast days weekly and "normal" maingenance eating the other days works better imo than trying to eat below TDEE every damn day.

OMAD (one meal a day) is a useful occasional tactic when you have a social occasion planned with a special, very indulgent meal

However, as a longterm WOE, OMAD works much better for male bodybuilders, as they may burn 3-4,000 calories daily and hence have no problem stuffing themselves to the brim

In contrast, women - with generally much lower TDEE, muscle, different hormonal balance, biology etc -
usually find it works for a couple of weeks, then becomes too stressful,
as even on that one meal they start to feel hungry most of the time, so they add a snack .... and it stops working

Also, research indicates that longterm OMAD increases the risk of CVD and other health issues.

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 22/01/2019 10:09

Welcome Peach

Happy Birthday for yesterday Scruffy!

Thanks 43 / BigChoc - 43 fingers are crossed for your weigh in too (along with everyone elses!)

If I do hit the 16's this weekend I shall celebrate by doing some tip runs Hmm oh - actually I'm getting my hair cut Saturday so shall allow that to feel more pampery!

Boysmomma · 22/01/2019 10:11

I'm back

I've been going with it, not as strict as I should but not being stupid either. Weight loss is painfully slow, I think I need to deal with the fact that my metabolism is not what it used to be and this is going to take a while Sad

How's everyone doing?

mickeymacca · 22/01/2019 10:34

where can I listen to MM's webchat thingy?

OohMrDarcy · 22/01/2019 10:38

Welcome back boys - how much do you have to lose?

I think it was a read it one Mickey - search in the webchats.

mickeymacca · 22/01/2019 10:45

thanks MrDarcy will have a look

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2019 11:02

Welcome back, boys

Yes, unfortunately TDEE falls as we get older, even if we exercise and retain all our muscle

A woman's TDEE / metabolism can be particularly affected by peri / meno or pregnancies

If progress has been very slow, then I recommend:

  • Have one full week on mfp , no guestimates at weight or amounts-
    This is to check you aren't eating back the FD deficit, or consuming too high a proportion of sugar / junky / boozy calories

    • If you exercise, NEVER eat back exercise calories on FDs Also, only allow for exercise on NFDs via activity level on TDEE, never via gadgets
  • Use Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others : Calc TDEE
    If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2019 11:05

What helps stay within TDEE later on and get sufficient nutrients, without eternal mfp ...

Keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

.NHS alcohol limits
.no snacking / grazing between meals
.sensible about sugary treats & crisps
.lots of water & veg
.cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

OP posts:
Boysmomma · 22/01/2019 11:30

Thanks all, I guess I was just hoping for one big drop and it's not happening.

@MrDarcy I lost 26kg so far and i have 30kg left to lose so nothing small and no reason for everything to be stalling. I'm doing a FD today, I've started back at the gym as clearly the exercise I am doing at home is just not cutting it.

thanks @Big you're right, I know you are. I am too confident that I'm doing it right. I meal prepped this week and everything is in containers and bags after being weighed so no room for error (accidental or otherwise!) The weighing scales are my friends

littlemoon86 · 22/01/2019 11:42

Hi all, first FD of the week today. I managed to lose 4lbs with my 2 FD last week but then had 3 social events this weekend and put 4lbs back on! Feeling like a failure Sad hopefully today will get me back on track.

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