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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
quackingduck222 · 13/12/2018 08:06

NotReally - Well done on your B2B, also huge well done on your SV 8lbs is fantastic.
If I eat breakfast I am the same, could definitely eat all day so I skip it.

43 - Well done on your FD.

Mini - Welcome to the thread and good luck for you first FD. I’d grab a tape and do your measurements today to record your inch loss. Also plenty of water should really help.

Smiled - Good to see you back. 5lbs is a small gain and it will be off in no time. Good luck and please come back and let us know your results for this week.

HicDraconis - Welcome to the thread, and what a amazing thing your doing. your in the right place a lot of us have been yo-yo dieters in the past.
Go with your TDEE in the opening post for your daily calories.

Faron - Well done on your FD.

Pop - Your plan is very sensible, you’ve done amazing this year and are so close now. Actually you sound very much like I was this time last year I had some time off over Xmas and hit it hard in the new year.

Good luck for your fast day 43 & snail and to everyone else fasting.

harriethoyle · 13/12/2018 08:25

I've changed from a full fast day to a mini because I was RAVENOUS when I woke up! Last big day of my work project today. Tomorrow will be finishing up and a bit of faffing..!! CANNOT WAIT Grin

PopGoesTheWeaz · 13/12/2018 08:25

So I normally only weigh myself once a week but yesterday kitchen closed quite l low (at roughly 1300) and this was following a B2B so I weighed this morning and was back in the 59s. Hoorah. But I really need to just step away from the scales if I'm going to let 60.15 upset me and 59.85 set me up for a good day as they really are just numbers -- especially when I no how unreliable my scale is.

Quacking, that's very encouraging. I'm already well past all my initial targets so with everything else going on finding it really hard to put the mental energy into a push for the last chunk. Am I know I'm coasting at the moment, but am okay with that as long as long term the numbers are going in the right direction (despite my annoyance when short term they don't!) But January I really want to be back with a vengeance.

Good luck to the Thursday fasters!

alltalknobaby · 13/12/2018 08:29

FD number 2 for me today. Porridge with water and banana for lunch, chicken stew for tea, hot Bovril to keep me going in between. Feeling quite positive, I received a compliment (from OH) that my belly has gone down a bit last night :) Had a Christmas lunch yesterday and managed to just eat (half) a main, no starter or dessert, I was pleased with my damage limitation.

Kapoww · 13/12/2018 09:04

Well done on all the FDs everyone!
I did my weekly weigh in this morning and I have put on 0.2 kilos, which is the same amount I lost last week. This is week 3 (6 fasts) for me. Can it take a while to get going?
I don’t have a lot to lose overall (5 kilos total) and I’m not overweight so does that make it more stubborn?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/12/2018 09:54

hope today fly's by for you harriet

Excellent news pop we really shouldn't get fixated on the numbers but easier said than done sometimes

Good luck with your FD alltalk

Kapow I would say from reading previous advice on here then if you only have a wee bit to lose then it can be slower, do you MFP everything just to check you are not going over on your NFDs? or that there are hidden calories bombs?? If you are already doing this then just stick with it and I'm sure you will see the loss soon Smile

Got 3 postgraduate / PhD presentations to sit through before I can have my much anticipated lunch today, plus there will be mince pies Sad do you think if I lock myself in my office they might think I'm not in Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 10:24

Good luck on your 1st FD, mini
FYI: it is recommended by doctors that we try to get waist below half the hight
So you are exactly on the limit

Shape & fat distribution is very individual, so that can be too high for some folk

  • also ideally we can aim to be well below the limit

pop,snail The final few lb before goal are usually lost much more slowly than the previous losses
Also - even for people not on a diet - weight generally varies 1-2 lb during the week, or during the day
So, ignore tiny blips in either direction.

Also, you may be continuing to lose fractions of an inch, so you can measure every few weeks, or check clothes feel.

Just stay focused as you are doing, be patient and you'll get there at the rate your individual bod allows

Good luck, Thursday fasters 🙂

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 10:26

Kapoww As I posted, that tiny increment is within normal daily / weekly variations
and yes, if you are already within healthy BMI, then the last few lb tend to be lost much more slowly than those with a couple of stone to go.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 10:27

43 & all the other fasters: Remember you can have mince pies tomorrow 🙂

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/12/2018 10:50

yes bcf we have a full xmas lunch and mince pies / xmas cake at work tomorrow which I am very much looking forward to Grin

alltalknobaby · 13/12/2018 11:18

43 & all the other fasters: Remember you can have mince pies tomorrow 🙂

Just added mince pies to my shop being delivered tomorrow evening ☺️

Stircrazyschoolmum · 13/12/2018 13:10

Hello Thursday fasters and welcome Newbies!

I am very fortunate that I HATE mince pies. (I also dislike Christmas Pudding and Christmas Cake but I’m a sucker for chocolate oranges and sticky toffee pudding )

pop we are scales twins! I keep bouncing between 60.7 and 59.7. Today it was the latter so I’m happy. Grin I’m similar to you that I’m already at goal weight and everything else is a bonus. (I don’t want to completely lose my boobs!)

Mini today. 299 in. Completely agree with the breakfast comments. I find if I eat around 13.00 and again around 18.00 I don’t snack or feel hangry.

Step back from the mince pies and keep going everyone!

Stircrazyschoolmum · 13/12/2018 13:13

cheddar I meant to say I’m blown away by your ability to turn somersaults on a trampoline! I find jumping up and down tricky enough! (It’s a gym class one) Best of luck for the competition, you’ll smash it. xx

MiniDoofa · 13/12/2018 13:17

First FD today. Came in at 750 calories. High for a FD I know. My kids are on hols already and it was a mega kitchen day churning out fruit, snacks, sausage rolls for them and their friends. Was quite impressed with self as would normally have had one sausage roll and gone “sod it” and eaten the lot!! So I kept it under control and had lots of water plus salad for lunch and dinner with salmon for dinner.
Feeling like I can do this.
Thank you so much for all your encouragement!!🙌🏻🙌🏻

bumblenbean · 13/12/2018 13:23

Hi all, am thinking of trying the 5:2 but am a bit apprehensive as my willpower is absolutely appalling!! I really struggle with cutting out chocolate/ biscuits - can you still eat these on non fasting days or does it have to be a normal amount of calories but still ‘healthy’ food?

Also what’s a mini?

Thank you Smile

emcla · 13/12/2018 15:07

Hoping to do a b2b. Fd today. Sipping earl grey tea here.

Fleabag123 · 13/12/2018 15:11

Hello Thursday fasters.

A mini is a more relaxed FD - 850-1000 cals, no alcohol or junk.

Boring day at work today so finding it hard. I’ve had a miso soup with a small amount of rice noodles and veg for 170 cals, saving the rest for later.

Tried the teaspoon of marmite trick as was feeling a bit light headed and rubbish - it works!

Hope everyone has a good day. I don’t even like mince pies but am now craving them having read the messages above 😂
Tomorrow (maybe)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/12/2018 16:04

Well done on your sv stir

mini for your first fd I'd say that was fine, you might need a couple like that to get you in the swing of things.

Welcome bumble yes you can eat those on non fast days but try to have them as part of a meal not as snacks and just a couple of times a week and not everyday. Have a go and you might surprise you self Smile

Good luck to emcla fleabag and all the other fasters

Well I survived the PhD presentations, was blaming b2b for cracking headache but then totm arrived after lunch .... suppose I should be happy no totm over Xmas Xmas Grin

emcla · 13/12/2018 16:06

I had the marmite too !

snailhunter · 13/12/2018 17:43

Well done all Thursday fasters, particularly MiniDoofa - the first one can feel a bit intimidating!

Haven't eaten anything yet - waiting for DH to come and make my dinner! Looking forward to lovely tuna steak and sauteed spinach tonight.

bumble Do give it a try. You can still eat the things you like but as 43 says, have them as part of a meal rather than snacking, and stay below your TDEE on NFDs - check out the links in BCF's opening post to work out your TDEE.

Remember that you don't have to suddenly change everything about your lifestyle and eating habits. I have been doing 5:2 for nearly a year now and I've changed a lot of habits, but very slowly, and that's worked really well for me - have never felt deprived because I haven't given everything up at once.

bumblenbean · 13/12/2018 18:32

Thanks guys! Really helpful info Smile I do find snacking my downfall so will have to work on that!!

Have you found the 5:2 more effective than day general healthy eating most of the time with the odd day off? There’s so much conflicting info out there about what works best it’s hard to know where to start Shock

bumblenbean · 13/12/2018 18:33

‘Day’ should be ‘say’ ...

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 19:17

That's a decent first FD, mini
Well done

Welcome, bumble 🙂
Don't worry, 5:2 doesn't require awesome willpower, or there would be very few of us doing it !

On NFDs, you can have treats, but try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

MiniFDs follow the same rules as FDs - no snacking, no alcohol, no junk - but allow more calories,
800-1000 cals.

So, enough for 3 small meals, or 2 good-sized ones, whichever you prefer.

Some people who struggle with FDs prefer to do an alternative system of 3 miniFDs instead:
Mon+Wed+Fri as miniFDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 19:29

You are doing well, stir and it sounds like your weight at goal is quite stable
Don't worry about tiny blips - they are unpredictable and totally meaningless as regards progress,
because they are within the normal daily / weekly weight variations

Being able to somersault on a trampoline is amazing, cheddar
Good luck for the competition, just relax and enjoy the experience

Well done on the Marmite, emla
You are learning all the useful fasting tools

bumble Health eating doesn't necessarily lose weight, unless you swap out a lot of junk for veg.
All successful weight loss comes down to different methods of consistently achieving a significant weekly calorie deficit

IF / 5:2 has been shown in studies to burn more fat than conventional daily diets, because it preserves muscle
whereas most diets lose muscle as well as fat, with often 25% of the loss as muscle

So, people on 5:2 often report they are "smaller" than they have been before at the same weight,
because muscle is firmer and has less volume than the same weight of fat.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2018 19:32

If you are insulin-resistant, especially pre-T2, then loss would be much slower if you eat a lot of carby junk, like cake & biscuits
However, that's the case on any diet

OP posts: