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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Fleabag123 · 10/12/2018 22:26

Gosh this thread moves fast!

I’m finding FDs ok but think I’ve been a bit naughty on NFDs, particularly alcohol wise - v unusual for me but it’s been a particularly social month

Today (FD) was super busy, ended up working late which wasn’t planned! black coffee and one 25 cal cup of miso soup until 8pm - is it bad to save all your calories for evening meal?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 00:04

Well done, snail, fleabag

Many folk prefer just to have supper on FDs, fleabag
one FD meal is fine if it suits you

OP posts:
Farontothemaddingcrowd · 11/12/2018 06:13

A bit disappointed today. I have gained a pound and am 11 stone. I seem to gain and lose the same few pounds and never get anywhere. I have friends visiting at the weekend too, so there will be pressure to eat and drink etc.

Wondering whether to have another fast day today to try to reset the balance.

It's really frustrating.

I've just found out that I'm b12 and iron deficient, so not sure if that makes a difference. I have to have injections every other day for two weeks.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/12/2018 08:40

wow this thread is moving bloody quickly!!!

Thanks stir and not, hope your whoosh comes soon not and I hope your OH is on the mend.

oh cheddar that sounds difficult, good luck with the competition...

wow pop I'd say that was one hell of a whoosh for you too, and to be back at your weight when you were at Uni is a fab result Grin

Oh dear boys blisters on the tongue sounds dreadful (your post did make me titter though!) Grin

well done faron some FDs are harder than others but you did well to get through it.

Welcome alltalk and some great advice from our leader bcf Smile keep posting on here, it is an incredible place for support and motivation.

Excellent FD snail

flea i'd say whatever works for you is right, so lots of people save calories for one larger meal.

faron keep going, you will see a loss soon, have you measured? You might be loosing inches and you just need to wait for the scales to catch up... Hope your injections help your condition

So i didn't quite manage not to have alcohol yesterday but usually we would order a bottle of wine and I'd drink most of it, instead I ordered half a lager and made it last the whole meal, so I'm counting that as an NSV for me Blush

FD today, skinny latte to get me through to my Subway chicken salad and sugar free jelly lunch, who else is fasting today??

alltalknobaby · 11/12/2018 09:11

Thanks everyone and thanks bcf for such helpful advice. It's all fairly common sense stuff but there's something about seeing it written down in black and white that makes it stand out. I shall adhere as much as possible to your advice.

Aside from the headaches, lack of concentration etc, one positive side effect from fasting was no stomach pain all day yesterday. Result! Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 11:13

Alltalk Several IBS sufferers on these threads have said that 5:2 helped, or even stopped, their symptoms.
However, if ever you get food poisoning or a stomach bug, don't fast for a few days after all symptoms have gone.

Fasting can help some chronic diseases related to either inflammation, or insulin metabolism,
e.g. PCOS, asthma

Faron If that has gone on for more than 3 weeks, then it counts as a plateau.

That may just be your body sticking at a previous set point,
in which case just focus, be patient and you will eventually lose fat again

OR
on NFDs, you may be eating / drinking back the FD deficit
in which case you need to retrain your "normal" eating permanently, as in the thread title.

Some people lose very easily, so only need a small weekly deficit to see at least slow progress,
whereas others are "hard losers", usually insulin-resistant and / or at a set point
and need a large deficit to make any progress.

I recommend:

  • Calculate TDEE
    This is Mosely's calculator which is more accurate than some others; he says exercisers should set one activitiy level lower than they think.

  • then mfp for a week to check your NFD intake averages around TDEE.

  • Do NOT eat back exercise calories other than via TDEE on NFDs, because gadgets are often inaccurate
    and never eat back cals on FDs, even if you are theoretically minus for the day.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 11:20

If you are not losing as expected, it is much better to work on your NFDs, rather than adding more FDs.
because otherwise you are not tackling the real issue and face regain as soon as you stop

Also, many people who can't control NFDs, automatically & without realising, increase their NFD intake when they add FDs.
Hence, they don't lose more quickly

I recommend keeping 4:3 for busting genuine plateaus,
i.e. when you are following all the rules and are also within TDDE

4:3 is is also useful as a short burst before a special occasion in the near future

OP posts:
snailhunter · 11/12/2018 13:39

Blimey, I wasn't expecting today's whoosh - 4lb off in the first week, taking me back to Happy Weight of under 10st! But I shall keep going!

harriethoyle · 11/12/2018 14:41

Just updated on the old one... doh! In a nutshell, I'm here, I'm fasting and I'm looking forward to the end of current work project on Friday Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 15:46

Well done on your SV, snail
Go with the Whoosh !

That's great, Harriet You deserve to chill after that tough project

43 well done on the alcohol NSV yesterday.
No need to be dry every day, just moderate

  • a few days with one small / medium drink is within NHS limits and lets you enjoy alcohol
OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/12/2018 16:13

Fab whoosh snail

Glad you found us harriet Smile and I hope Friday cones quickly for you.

That's good to know bcf

Kapoww · 11/12/2018 16:18

Hi everyone!
I’m still here and blasting through week 3. I was a bit disappointed last week to only lose 1/2 a pound. But I’m still going and fasted yesterday and will again tomorrow. I found I was looking forward to fasting on Sunday night. Less so during Monday Grin

I absolutely love only having to do this twice a week.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 17:24

Well done on your SV, kapoww
It's all in the right direction

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 11/12/2018 17:36

B2b today so I'm in...
Thanks Too & 43 oh is under the doc now, he has a suspect mole being removed after xmas..
Good job snail 4 big ones..
A loss is a positive kapoww well done.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 11/12/2018 18:14

I should clarify that I wasn't exactly svelte back at Uni but it's like that meme says "I wish I were as fat as I was the first time I thought I was fat".

Kappow I so relate to looking forward to fast - hell, i sometimes even enjoy most of the day and the all of the sudden it's like hitting a brick wall and wondering how the hell can I get through this?

A bit panicked as I had an aubergine pasta planned but my aubergine was off so now don't know what to have for my fast dinner :(

Farontothemaddingcrowd · 11/12/2018 18:23

NFD today. I had a baked pot with beans and cheese, two mozzarella sticks at 66 cals each, 5 falafels (250 cal) in a wrap filled with homous and a yogurt. One choc fudge sweet.
Thinking that should be a more reasonable NFD and if I stick to that, i should lose with fasting.

Borris · 11/12/2018 18:52

B2b d2 here. I’ve been hungrier today than for a long time. My tummy was properly growling on the drive home. Just enjoying a weight watchers chilli meal at 300 cals followed by yoghurt

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2018 19:12

Sounds good, faron

Borris Maybe the cold weather ?
I find hot beef Bovril (10 cals) very satisfying on a winter FD

pop Any eggs or grated cheese or beans ? Any protein would work well.

Best wishes to your OH, Notreally
I hope they can treat him before the Christmas hols.

OP posts:
harriethoyle · 11/12/2018 19:27

The kitchen has closed on 514 calories! Happy with that Smile well done @borris the second b2b is always tough! @pop that's super annoying! Hope you found an alternative...

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 11/12/2018 21:28

Kitchen closed on 508. It’s been pretty hard-going for me today too, Borris - think because the office is full of treats and I keep thinking “oh, it’s nearly Christmas, what harm would it do to relax a bit?” And then I remember that there are still 3 and a bit FDs to go before I can give myself Christmas off, and that I must not spend three weeks eating and drinking endlessly, because one week will do quite enough damage as it is!

Notreally, thinking of you and your DH - best wishes to him.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/12/2018 21:37

half a pound is a loss kapow its all in the right direction
Fingers crossed there's nothing sinister in the mole notreally

pop I get it, I look back at photos of me in my 20s and wish I was like that again, but at the time i felt so insecure, overweight and ugly Sad youth is wasted on the young!!! Hope you managed a tasty tea?

faron that sounds like you are within tdee?? good luck this week

well done borris for battling through Grin it has turned v v cold today

Well done harriet

A big fat FD fail today i know there are no such things as failed FDs had an hour and a half delay to my train and was freezing by the time i got in, DH suggested the pub at the end of the road, and I caved Blush still within TDEE but going to have to do FD tomorrow and thurs now as out fri - why didn't i just have a bit more resolve!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/12/2018 21:38

cross post with cheddar well done on battling through too Smile

PopGoesTheWeaz · 11/12/2018 21:53

I feel so cold today 43 if someone had offered me a pub meal I would have been there in a flash. Managed to rustle up a veggie/shrimp stir fry (with my fake noodles) which was fine, not worth writing home about though. Anyway, certainly no such thing as a fail so just pick up tomorrow as you were.

cheddar my office is full of treats at the moment too. Easier to avoid on FD (though even then the chocos have been calling me) but I'm really not looking forward to tomorrow.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/12/2018 07:54

Thanks pop day 1 of b2b here I come Grin hope it's not as flipping cold today though!! Hope you can swerve the office treats or maybe chose 1 thing to have with your lunch and not snack?

Farontothemaddingcrowd · 12/12/2018 08:00

Fast day today. I will do this.