5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Borris 2018 has been your year for shifting excess weight that's been holding you back
2019 is your new life ahead

at Borris shifting 12 stone of useless weight. Astounding loss there!

I have buggered up my mini, but on the plus side I’m comfortably within my TDEE for the day. Note to self: plan meals if doing minis!

Sub-TDEE at the weekend is a win, cheddar

Wow borris that is some whoosh you got there

Hmmm I got 5/10... more sleep, less alcohol and more exercise I could have told them that what exercise is best for sometime who is time poor and lacking in any motivation?

Don't panic cheddar coming in under tdee is great. Well done all the other weekend fasters

Thanks quacking I lost the first 25lb pretty consistently at around a 1lb a week (ish) but since then I've had a few plateaus and whooshes, I've had to deal with keeping on going when the scales font move but I'm learning they do eventually catch up. Wow 7 months is amazing, I so can't wait until I get to a happy weight

Nfd today and I'm out after work for a meal, in light of my quiz results I'm going to try and not have a drink... I can do it right!!

Hope everyone has a good day

BCF - At least
You got out before the winds started. We must have had some of your wind Saturday plus rain.

With the veg score I put 1-2 portions but half my plate is always veg just usually the same veg and no more than 2 different types. I know the wrappers now say x = 1 of your 5 a day so if I go over that does it class as 2 or 3?

Borris - That’s a huge turn around with the alcohol, I bet you don’t even miss it?

Cheddar- What happened? Sounds like you had a good day regardless.

43 - Exercise wise atm is non exsistant for me it’s been ages since I went for a run. But I’ve found doing the school run and housework I’m burning about the same as a run. Even a plod round the shops ramps my steps up for the day. What do you like doing? I would recommend YouTube there is tonnes of classes on there to suit everyone and it’s free. I love dance based classes like Zumba as it’s fun. But anything you can think of is on there.

Well the good thing is you now know what’s going on with the scales. It’s a pain when it doesn’t move but when it does for you, your getting fab results.

Good luck to all the fasters and B2Bers today.

43, what sort of time poor? Do you have to stay in the house because of small children in the mornings before work/evenings? Or is it working hours that are the problem? If it's that you can't go to the gym/out for a run because of childcare, then probably your only option is exercising in the house - I used to do the Shred, but there are millions of options on YouTube. Not sure what the answer is if it's long working hours, sadly.

I was a bit taken aback by my quiz results because I said I drank 2-3 glasses of wine on Fridays and Saturdays, and apparently that's amber because binge drinking. The advice was to spread my drinks out over the week - I really don't think 2 glasses of wine on a Friday night are going to wreck my liver. At that level I'm nowhere near the weekly alcohol unit limit for women. It's also way less than most women I know drink. I freely admit to having nights out where I drink a lot more, and I drink more when I'm visiting family etc, but those are the exception rather than the rule.

duck, I was intending to have lunch and dinner only, but I bowed to social pressure at a friend's in the morning and had a mince pie, and then I had soup for lunch but was still hungry, went out to my trampolining class and did extremely badly, so was very dispirited, came back and there was nothing in the house and we had to go to Tesco hungry, which meant grabbing the fastest thing - DH wanted those canape things you put in the oven. And then I thought fuck it and ate another mince pie. Came in at 1600.

Amazing whoosh, 43! Congrats!

My sister also lost about 12 stone of useless weight this year, borris. And oddly enough she has dropped a lot of the unhealthy habits she developed to cope with living with the owner of that weight's dreary, border abusive, whiny, childish behaviour. (I don't like him. Can you tell?)

FD for me today. Feeling good despite being premenstrual AGAIN - massive, sore boobs seem to be a constant at the moment. I have just ordered two lovely non-underwired bras which will hopefully make me feel better. I'm an FF cup size so having no bra at all is also quite a painful option.

thanks quacking and cheddar for your exercise tips.... I have a pretty hectic mon-fri, so I am up for 5.30am and out of the house at 6.30am, I get home about 5.30pm but then with various DS clubs / activities / dog walking duties / cleaning / shopping / cooking etc I literally don't stop until 8.30pm most nights once DS is in bed, and then I collapse into bed about 9.30pm - so the thought of fitting in some exercise in the week seems too much to do (I know there are people busier than me!)

I have more time on the weekend, but even then, there is always something (other) to do... I think my preferred activity would be horse riding although appreciate that's not going to increase my fitness! I love walking though, and i do quite a bit, but increasing that to a point whereby I get any exercise benefits seems too much also. I am a lost cause!

cheddar going food shopping when hungry is a killer, so well done on still coming in on 1600 why did you do badly at trampolining? I am not the best person to advise on drinking given my bad quiz result but that doesn't seem like much to be tipping you into amber level! I went to a presentation the other day on international weekly alcohol limits and it was interesting to see the massive fluctuations by country, Iceland had something like 30 units per week for women!!! It seems no one can agree on a limit...

well done to your sister snail what is it with some men

Ooh I feel your pain re: sore boobs, I think i'm just starting peri also and my main thing seems to be constant boob tenderness too, I am also a FF cup so understand the need to have a bra of some sort on - I also have to snug cropped vest tops that I wear sometimes which give just enough support.

Happy Monday everyone!

Thank you for the new thread BCF great to see it’s started with a whoosh! (Well done 43 and Borris!)

The weeks seem to rush by for me right now.. I’m buried in project Christmas and mostly enjoying it although I’m occasionally freaking out about food/drinks/parties and generally being weak willed! I’ve bought some new sparkily jumpers and fitted tops recently.. I don’t dare gain weight as nothing will fit!

The exercise comments are interesting, I wouldn’t describe myself as time poor but I’d say I’m poor with self care. I tend to view exercise as a luxury.. there’s always something more important to do for someone else.. so I gravitate towards a quick sweet / fatty / alcoholic fix rather than looking after myself properly. Plus, I hate getting changed into gym gear when I feel cold.. does this resonate with anybody?

cheddar I love trampolining class but you have to practically sell your mother to get a place on the one near us, what went wrong?

cheddar re your quiz / alcohol query:

As well as the 14 unit weekly limits, there is a daily limit of 3 units,
because your liver shouldn't have to process too much in too short a time.

If your tipple is wine, then recommended limits are no more than 225 ml total per day.
Other tipples:

	Standard glass of wine (150ml) - 2 units
	Pint of low strength beer - 2 units
	Pint of high strength beer - 3 units
	Bottle of lager - 1.7 units
	Can of lager - 2 units
	Alcopop - 1.5 units
	Single spirit and mixer - 1 unit

stir, 43 If you are time poor / cba to change into gym gear ...

You just need trainers, sports bra, loose top & shorts / skirt / trews - and you won't sweat enough to need a shower - with these:

Mosely's HIIT Fat Blasts*
-* just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park or gym, 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OPP*

Research indicates this extra concentrated HIIT is surprisingly good at improving fitness and also correcting some insulin metabolism issues

P.S this is what ONE unit looks like - so you can have up to 3 of these on your drinking days:

duck Portions of veg & fruit need to be about 80g minimum, but more than this doesn't increase the number of official portions

• you need different veg e.g. even 1kg spinach would still be only 1 portion

However, if you have mixed veg, e.g. peas, carrots & broccoli from frozen, then 240g would count as 3 veg portions.

Soup is also only 1 portion, as is a smoothie, or juice - no matter how large the portion
That's mainly because you don't have to chew much / at all, so it has a higher insulin impact than the whole veg itself

I didn't realise there is a daily limit of 3 units as well, thanks BigChoc. I drink half a bottle of wine on Friday and Saturday evenings at home, usually - so 375 mls a night, 1 bottle for the weekend (or 2 bottles shared with DH). Doesn't sound that much but it's 5 units. Nights out are way more than that!

43 and stir, it's trampoline gymnastics and we're coming up to the annual club competition, so I've been learning 2 routines and I spent the class yesterday crashing repeatedly and spectacularly when I tried to go from one somersault into another one. To put that into context, I'll probably be in a level and age category with a bunch of 12 year olds who can all actually do it, and I am much older and fatter so look like an idiot even without crashing. Oh well.

43, horse riding uses more muscles than you'd think!

A new thread I thought I'd lost you all..
A whoosh 43 well done. & welldone for everything I missed over the weekend..
Waiting for my whoosh but think like others being 51 & having up & down hormones is not helping plus iron tablets are slowing the workings (tmi)

not a perfect weekend, stuff going on with OH medically & was a bit stressful.
FD #1 of b2b today I find its easier to put them together..
Have fun all x

These threads move so fast when I only check in on FD so sorry for missing everyone's successes but just wanted to say another hooray for whooshes to 43. Mines not quite a dramatic a whoosh but after weeks of STS at 62kg, I had a flue that got the scales moving again. Was worried it would be back on the next week but actually, even though it was TTOTM more pounds have come off and last weigh in I was under 60KG. This is huge for me, and I'm now just 5 lbs off my super stretch goal where I@ll weigh less than I did at Uni.

Celebrated by going bra shopping as my chest is sadly deflated (but my stomach no longer sticks out to the same point as my chest so swings and roundabouts!).

A visitor brought a bunch of donuts into the office but I'm really keen not to float back into the 60s so keeping that in mind every time I fast my was past them ;)

Thanks for the new thread @BCF!

I had strep or the last few days only coming around now, plus side there were blisters on my tongue so I couldn't eat. Downside, there were blisters on my tongue and I couldn't eat

Hope everyone is having a good start to the week! Finished my antibiotics on Wednesday so hoping to have a mini Thursday or Friday to get me back in the zone.

I hope those nasty blisters go asap, boys 🤒
and that you are soon fighting fit again 💐
Keep drinking water, no booze, no junk, to support your immune system

Congrats on your SV and 60kg milestone, pop
You'll soon weigh less than you did at Uni ! 👩🏻‍🎓

NotReally It's tough when there is family illness, but it is probably NFDs holding you back

• at 50+, we can no longer eat / drink / junk as we used to Once things settle down and you can focus, have a look at your NFDs

Good luck with the trampoline, cheddar
The competition sounds exciting - you show 'em !

Good luck, Monday fasters, not long to go now

500 cals today but still hungry. Trying to stay motivated...

Can I join please? I'm a struggling newbie.

5'8" and 173(ish) pounds / 78.5 kilos. DD is now almost 2 so I can't blame the baby any more 😩

Tried 18:6 recently but found I still couldn't curb the junk cravings. I tried 5:2 years ago and gave up after one day. Too hard! Started again today and have found it SOOO hard, and I've ended up on 679 so not even a very good/hard FD 😔 I've got a terrible headache and have been hangry all day.

Any words of advice for a disheartened hungry wobbly newbie?

Welcome, Alltalk 🙂
That's a decent 1st FD, so give yourself a pat on the back.
It's fine to ease into 5:2 and allow yourself some extra calories on FDs until you adapt.
Most people get used to fasting within 2-3 weeks

tips for your next FD:

• Glug a teasp marmite (10 cals) from the jar, mid-morning & mid-afternoon, to help avoid headaches,
  this replenishes lost salt & minerals while your body is adapting to the much lower food on an FD

• Drink plenty of water all day.
  Start the FD with a glass of water, keep water by you all day - and drink it.

• Try to just have black unsweetened coffee / tea / herbal tea for breakfast,
  to save your calories for lunch & supper

• Do NOT snack - aim to have 2 meals and don't just have fruit on its own. Always have protein with a meal

• For your meals, have plenty of protein plus masses of veg, with optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
  e.g. salmon / prawns / egg with a big mixed salad or as stirfry with veg

• Avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, cereal bars, breakfast cereals etc

tips for NFDs:

keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

+NHS alcohol limits
+NEVER snack / graze between meals
+sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
+lots of water & veg
+cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

The 2 FDs must be without any alcohol or junk, especially sweet crap - cake, biscuits, choc etc

This, plus the much lower calories, gives your body a rest from junk
and puts it in the best state to burn its own fat for fuel.

All done here at 550 or so. Looking forward to an early night!

Hope today went well, Notreally. Sorry to hear your OH isn’t well - hope he’s on the mend soon.

Pop, yay for under 60kg and I am so impressed that you’re nearly lighter than you were at uni!

Boyz, get well soon! Ouch to tongue blisters.

Good luck, Faron, hope you stuck it out!

Alltalk, welcome! The first fast day is always the hardest! You can do this.

Well done, snail!