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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
quackingduck222 · 12/12/2018 08:10

Faron - Definitely stick with it and see what happens, if you get no change I would recommend using MFP for a week just to double check calories and just make sure there are no hidden calorie bombs there.

43 - Well done on just having half a larger that really is a NSV. I hope your FD went well yesterday.

AllTalk - Welcome to the thread, are you drinking enough? I would really recommend drinking more and that should help with the headaches. It’s tough when you first start but I promise it gets easier.

Snail- Congratulations 4lbs is excellent.

Harriet- I hope the week passes quickly for you.

Kapoww- Good luck for week 3, 1/2 lb is still a good loss, it’s going the right way.

NotReally - I hope your B2B went well.

Well done on your B2B Borris. I think some days we just get a bit more hungrier.

Cheddar- Well done on your FD, very wise words there. So very easily done.

43 - Honestly I wouldn’t worry about it these things happen. And your still within TDEE so that’s great.

Well done on your FD pop, I hope you managed to warm up.

43 & Faron good luck for your FD.

I’m going in for a FD today too.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 12/12/2018 08:25

Go faron, you can do this! And good luck 43 and duck and anyone else fasting today too.

Notreallyhappy · 12/12/2018 09:47

Wednesday fasters have this in the bag, I've got a good feeling.

B2B was ok thanks quacking came in 670ish.

Up & down scales has moved...yay!! 2lb down so 8lb loss since coming back here even with life getting in the way.

Have a good day all & Thank you for kind wishes for OH.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2018 10:46

Well done on your FDs yesterday, Harriet, Cheddar, pop, Notreally

It's not an FD "fail", 43, Just an FD postponed 🙂

Good luck, 43, Faron, Duck and aany other Wednesday fasters

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 12/12/2018 16:14

Quick question....BCF Iexpect you can enlighten me..
After b2b today, I had a slice of seeded bread plus scrambled egg & tomato on top....
Why when I eat breakfast I could eat all day? On a FD I'm ok till later...Confused

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/12/2018 16:32

Thanks quacking and bcf so far so good, I'm on about 250cals, not sure what to have for dinner yet but I've got a good amount to play with.

Excellent sv not Smile I very rarely eat breakfast now for that reason, I found if I skipped breakfast on a nfd then I actually didn't feel hungry until 11amish whereas if I eat breakfast I am usually ravenous, it's like it turn's on my appetite. Why not try skipping it and see how you get on?

MiniDoofa · 12/12/2018 16:38

Hello all
Can I join please? Have had a tough year emotionally and have dealt with that by eating everything in sight.
I now have a wardrobe full of clothes which don’t fit and am at least 1.5 stone overweight.
I haven’t actually dated weigh myself for weeks but will do so tomorrow and post here. I’ve done 5:2 before and found it tough but got results.
Any tips for a first FD onThursday?

MiniDoofa · 12/12/2018 16:39

*dared weigh, not dated 🙄

Notreallyhappy · 12/12/2018 17:20

43....I was thinking to keep on with the no breakfast except Saturday when OH is home, it's not much fun eating by yourself anyway...no breakfast it is then x

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 12/12/2018 18:12

Hi everyone,

I have been away - got sick gave up 5:2 for a few months & put on 5lbs BlushConfused

Am on 2nd FD this week - feels good to be back Smile

Going to weigh myself in the morning & crossing my fingers some of it has shifted!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/12/2018 18:49

Welcome mini you'll soon be back into the fasting groove, good luck and welcome back smiled fingers crossed you've got rid of most of that 5lb gain

Just had soup and turkey breast, was very hangry with dh and ds going around tesco Confused I have 100 call left and not sure whether to have something else or keep for b2b day 2?

harriethoyle · 12/12/2018 19:24

@smiled 5lb is just a couple of fast days and a big poo! You can do it!

@fortythree I always keep them for day 2 of a b2b cos 800 cals is LOADS and @not I am exactly the same. No breakfast? Fine til lunch. Breakfast? Ravenous by 11am!!

I am on a normal today, still got 300 cals to go but am inclined to bank them for my indulgent weekend. Fasting tomorrow! @fortythree I'll see you there Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2018 19:37

NotReally Many people find breakfast makes them eat more later
It's because a big breakfast raises your insulin quite a bit

If I have breakfast, it's usually just my small cucumber, spinach & zucchini smoothie, which is v low cal and hardly raises insulin at all.

If you skip breakfast, this lengthens the overnight fast and forces your body to burn its fat for fuel
Hence why you don't feel hungry, once you've adapted to this

OP posts:
HicDraconis · 12/12/2018 19:45

Hello - another overweight yo-yo dieter who has tried everything going, lost the weight and then piled it back on (plus a bit more). DH and I are both trying 5:2 as a way to bring the eating under control for good - he needs weight loss for chronic ill health and I need to get my BMI under 25 before they’ll let me give him a kidney. It’s over 30 currently :(

MFP gives me a target of 1200/day, the TDEE gives me 1900. Which one should I go for and will it matter if it’s under?

BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2018 19:50

Welcome back, smiled
Good to hear you are well again.
Don't worry, that 5lb will soon go, if you nail the FDs and focus on good NFD habits

Welcome, Mini 🙂
I recommend you also measure waist (at narrowest point, about 2" above the navel) and hips too

To reduce hunger, on FDs and NFDs,
no snacking / grazing / nibbling - eat meals, nothing between, because

"little pickers need bigger knickers"

On FDs:

  • Do NOT eat back any exercise calories on FDs
    Allow for them only on NFDs, via TDEE, not via gadgets

  • No alcohol or junk whatsoever, i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, crisps etc

  • Don't snack or graze, eat preferably just lunch & supper, or supper - nothing between
    So black coffee / espresso / tea for breakfast, preferably without milk or sweetener

  • Start the day with a glass of water and keep drinking

  • Base each meal on a moderate portion of protein, plus masses of non-starchy veg, optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
    e.g. fish / prawns / eggs with salad or stirfry veg

  • To help avoid headaches while you adapt to fasting, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) - regard it as medicine, even if you hate it.
    It replenishes salt & other minerals, also boosts B vits

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2018 20:04

Welcome, Hic 🙂
Good luck to you and your DH.
He is so lucky to have a generous prospective donor like you

Ignore the mfp target - it is for those on a standard daily calorie reduced diet
On 5:2, NFDs are "maintenance" days, so 1900 sounds about right

I recommend you check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calc with one activity level lower than they think

Don't eat back calories on FDs or NFDs via gadgets, or you'll be eating back twice - also they tend to overestimate cals burned

There is no inherent problem with being under TDEE most days, other than that it can make you hungry on NFDs
and make it more likely you binge or can't manage FDs

I recommend you aim around TDEE at least for the first 2-3 weeks while you get used to fasting.
Most people stay with this.

However, once you are used to fasting, you can optionally speed up by aiming for the TDEE of your goal weight on say 2-3 days.
However, keep at least 1 day per week when you eat at least TDEE, so that you keep your metabolism revved up as much as possible.

If you have a few stone to lose, you would probably lose well on 800 FDs at first, if this makes it more sustainable

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/12/2018 21:34

High five Harriet see you for fasting tomorrow :-)

Welcome hic and good luck with it, what an amazing thing you are doing for your dh Smile

Off to bed as 5.30am start ....zzzzzzz......

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/12/2018 21:35

Oh I meant to say how have you got on with your fd faron ?

Farontothemaddingcrowd · 12/12/2018 21:50

I've done really well on today's fast day. I had a small pot of chilli noodles at work and an ovaltine. That's it. I've also been super energised.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2018 23:02

Great FD, Faron

OP posts:
MiniDoofa · 12/12/2018 23:27

Thanks big choc!! Just starting my day here,
I’ve braved the scales... 12stone exactly. Would like to (and used to for years even after kids) be 10.5.
Measured waist as advised which is 34 inches. No idea what I’m aiming for but has to be less because I don’t fit my clothes!!! I’m 5’8”tall.
Starting FD with hot water and lemon. Don’t usually have breakfast but love a giant sandwich for lunch and a few coffees Blush so I’ve got some miso soup and a big salad lined up for lunch. Fingers crossed!!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 12/12/2018 23:37

balls. Weigh in today and I'm back in the 60s, just a pound on from last week so mentally I know that that sort of difference could be anything from water retention to my totally unreliable scales being temperamental but boy was that a let down.

Hey ho, im going into pause mode over the next few weeks and will be back in full effect and then some in January so just not going to let these little ups and downs throw me. I've lost so much in the last 8 months (granted, most of it in the first 6) that I'm okay with this last 5lbs coming in their own slow time.

Farontothemaddingcrowd · 13/12/2018 06:30

Keep on with it pop and it will pay off on the end. It's hard over Christmas.

I thought I had gained a pound but weighed myself after yesterday's fast day and I've gone down to 10 stone 12. That's down from 11.2 when I started a couple of weeks? ago.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/12/2018 07:08

Well done faron

Good luck today mini

Grrr pop that is frustrating as you are so close but keep going, there could be any number of reasons for the blip and you will soon be back under 60 Smile

B2b day 2 so skinny latte to see me through to chicken salad and sugar free jelly, soup and some kind of protein or omelette and salad for dinner. Good luck fellow Thurs fasters Smile

snailhunter · 13/12/2018 07:45

Welcome newbies! Good attitude, pop. Slow and steady. I only have a few to lose as well after losing a stone and they are always the hardest. FD for me today. Going to be tough as it is freezing!

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