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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
harriethoyle · 13/12/2018 20:22

@stircrazy chocolate orange is my crack - like giving a cat dreamies. I can eat one in a single sitting!!

Have an excellent NSV tonight - I'm back in my 28 inch waist jeans which are the smallest pair I own and which I haven't been in since the September before I left my ex husband... which was three and a quarter years ago! Yippee!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/12/2018 20:51

Wow harriet that is an amazing NSV Grin

B2b day 2 done on 755 cals (I had 100 from yesterday) although doubtful I'll bother weighing tomorrow as totm here and feel v v bloated Sad

So looking forward to Xmas lunch and a few drinks tomorrow, it has been a looonnnggggg week!

harriethoyle · 13/12/2018 21:34

Hasn't it just @forty. I'm both lunching and dining AND drinking tomorrow... I'll be back in my 30 inchers before I know it! Grin

harriethoyle · 13/12/2018 21:35

also even if you don't lose cos of totm, you'll still be lower than if you hadn't fasted! X

HicDraconis · 13/12/2018 21:57

Hello! FD today and I’m surprised at how easy it’s been so far! Then again it’s only 11am here ... I’ve had 2 black coffees and I’m not really hungry yet. Planning some tomato and basil soup for lunch (228 cals) and some vege chilli for dinner (185 cals). Haven’t weighed myself yet, but think I might leave that for a few weeks until my clothes start to feel looser! Going to try the marmite trick, assuming OurMate is the same as UK marmite - and discovering an addiction to buttermint tea :-)

Farontothemaddingcrowd · 13/12/2018 22:00

Wow that's a great NSV @harriet.

Enjoy Xmas lunch tomorrow @forty. I'm not fasting now until Monday because of various Christmas festivities, though might try to do a mini tomorrow.

I felt rough today after my first b12 injection so I've just taken it easy and slept.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/12/2018 07:04

Is that it for your work project harriet so you can really let your hair down Smile

Good luck hic fd food sounds lovely

Hope you had a good sleep and feel better this morning faron

It was far too early this morning to contemplate weighing, I'm not too bothered though as feeling less bloated today.

Have a great Friday everyone Grin

harriethoyle · 14/12/2018 08:33

That's it for this bit of it @fortythree Hmm There'll be more of it in the new year but we'll jump off that bridge when it collapses underneath us!

HicDraconis · 14/12/2018 08:35

harriet wow! That’s fantastic. I don’t think I’ve ever fitted into 28” jeans - probably not since I was 7 anyway 😂

43 enjoy your Christmas lunch and drinks!

faron hope you’re feeling better with some B12 on board.

Plans changed (as they always do!) - I didn’t get time to have lunch so fasted for the day and saved all my calories for dinner. Stir fry pork with garlic, ginger and Konjac noodles - 215, so enough calories for a banana in yogurt for dessert. I didn’t really feel hungry past mid morning, though lots of headaches, so definitely going to get some marmite in. Finished up on 459 for the day and feeling surprisingly good.

Have a great Friday all - mine is coming to an end and I’m heading to bed.

HicDraconis · 14/12/2018 08:51

One other question - why no alcohol on fast days? If it’s within the calorie allowance? My “drinking” days were Fri/Sat/Sun but Friday is now a FD.

emcla · 14/12/2018 10:34

2nd fast day today. Struggling along surrounded by delicious food at work. Christmas goodies and all that ! At least I’m relatively busy at work.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 10:51

HIC Since you are losing weight to be a kidney donor, I recommend you lose as healthily as possible, so your organs and general health are as good as possible.

There is no research on fast days with alcohol or junk, so it is unknown territory as to health effects

  • unlike normal fasting, which has been extensively researched.
However, drinking on days when you are eating ¼ of your normal amount is probably a bad idea for your stomach & digestive system.

The FDs are the only days where everyone needs to be strict about no alcohol and no junk, especially sugary junk.

Alcohol stops fat-burning for hours, until the liver has finished processing the toxic by-products

sugar spikes insulin, which also stops fat-burning and switches to fat-storage

So they are the main things for everyone to avoid on FDs, the main days on which you try to burn fat
If you want to boost weight loss, btw, then cutting back on these on NFDs too will keep you longer in fat-burning mode.

Research has shown that people on a junkier diet have to cut total calories by 8%, compared to those eating reasonably healthy food, to lose at the same rate.
There is no data on the health risks

The 2 FDs give your body a rest from what are sometimes called "anti-nutrients" because they are not just empty calories,
but they can also cause longterm harm in excess

It is better for everyone's health to split up the drinking days anyway, rather than have them all consecutively

Also, do make sure you keep within the daily limits of 3 units - about 225 ml wine - and weekly units of 14 units

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:01

I hope you feel better tomorrow, Faron
but you are absolutely right not to fast after injections, or anything else, make you feel too rough.

Instead of a mini tomorrow, try to have a healthy TLC weekend, Friday - Sunday, to support your system and to avoid eating back the single FD deficit,
So preferably without alcohol & junk if you can.

Stay focused, emcla You are doing really well on your b2b
Chant to yourself some of our 5:2 FD mantras:

"I can have it tomorrow !"

"Communal food has poo crumbs & snot smears !"
(Did everyone wash their hands after the toilet or blowing their nose ?)

Best not to weigh with totm, 43 as it is usually misleading
We know that the hormonal changes cause temporary water retention, which will be released by the FD after totm ends.

So you'll feel a lot lighter then 🙂 - just avoid the totm munchies, so you can continue to burn fat.

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 14/12/2018 11:06

I am heading out at 12.30 for my Christmas lunch. I'm sure the NHS limits have little-known loopholes written into them for Christmas parties!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 12:08

cheddar < arms drones, heading Cheddarwards ! > 🚀🛰 🏹

OP posts:
emcla · 14/12/2018 13:58

More chocolate and muffins dropped into work just now. Angry

snailhunter · 14/12/2018 14:08

I honestly don't think I could drink on FDs, Hic, but maybe I am just a lightweight. Half a glass of wine on an FD would probably put me on the floor. I go a bit weird on FDs with just a strong coffee!

billysboy · 14/12/2018 14:12

I think I may give this a go as I have 3 stone that I would like to lose by April

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 15:05

Welcome, billy 🙂
Go for it !

OP posts:
Kapoww · 14/12/2018 18:01

Hi all
Just checking in. My DH is at his Christmas party tonight, but as I’m self employed I don’t have one. So I decided to have a mini FD instead. I’m at 750 and I’m going to have some yoghurt and granola soon. I actually took the kids to the McDs drive thru and managed to resist a Malteser McFlurry so I’m feeling pretty strong!
Good luck to all of you on FDs or going to Christmas parties!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:55

Good idea to have an opportunist mini, Kapoww

OP posts:
HicDraconis · 15/12/2018 00:27

Thanks BigChoc, I didn’t realise that what you ate on FDs was important as long as it was within calories! I will have to swap Friday night wine for another night (or, shock horror, drop a drinks day altogether). I probably drink too much as it is, so it’s another nudge towards better health.

End of week one and I have lost 2.4kg :) just finished a very sweaty morning of karate and looking forward to a hot sunny afternoon decorating the Christmas tree and weed

HicDraconis · 15/12/2018 00:28

weeding the garden! Posted by accident :) have a good weekend all.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 09:22

Well done on your SV, HIC
Excellent start
2.4 kg = 5.3 lb

Also, for every 5lb loss, waist typically drops 1", so you can also monitor that every couple of weeks.

Tips:
Be mindful this weekend, so you don't eat back the FD calorie deficit and undo your good work
Have proper meals always including protein and masses of different veg, with no snacks between

The main tips with alcohol on NFDs are:

  • keep within the daily limit of 3 units - which is only 225 ml wine -
  • and within 14 units weekly
  • spread out the drinking days

For those in a hurry, or just needing to cut down on something, Mosely recommends
2:5ing it
i.e. a moderate portion on 2 days per week, none the other days
That can be alcohol, sweet crap, crisps or whatever it is you want to cut back.

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 15/12/2018 10:24

Pop - You sound very similar to me last year, I changed my target by a stone at the 11th hour but I found that last bit mentally quite hard. Bit of time off over Xmas, bit of a gain also did wonders to give me a preverbal kick up the backside I needed.

AllTalk - well done on your 2nd FD

Kapoww - Yeah sounds like it may be a bit slower for you. That’s less than a stone and the last stone can be a bit of a pain to loose. But give it some time and you if you don’t I’d personally do a week on MFP and log everything.

Well done on your mini StirCrazy.

Mini - Congratulations on your first FD.

Bumble - Welcome to the thread, I think fasting will be good for you. Our mantra is you can have it tomorrow. You can still have your biscuits on NFD. A mini fast day is about 800-1000 calories.
I love 5:2 over general heathy eating as it’s not occupying your thoughts 24/7 just 2 days a week. Much more relaxed approach.

Emcla - I hope your B2B went well.

Hic- Well done on your FD.

Cheddar- Glad you had a lovely day out, wow that sounds a great plan for next week.

Not a great week for me, 5lbs up with a meal out today. Definitely fasting twice next week but not too worried as have a week to get back to where I want to be. Also trying to fight off a cold atm.

Good luck to anyone fasting today.