5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Good luck fasting @BCF, a jog along the Rhine, sounds idyllic.
Well done @OohMrDarcy sounds like you are making great progress!
@Ican welcome I am a newbie too, I only started two weeks ago.
I am doing 5:2 with 500 Cal's on my FD.
Personally I am trying to reduce my carb intake, However on NFD, I do allow myself either 2 weetabx or porridge or overnight oats. It's the only meal I haven't been able to get carb free. Lunch and dinner is easy because I am eating mainly salad with every meal and lots and lots of veggies, so I don't feel I'm missing out. Welcome it's a very supportive group.

Oh and @Ican, I personally don't eat low fat anything and yes I do eat meat on FD and non FD.

MrDarcy - Well done on your FD, it’s amazing how quickly your skin clears up when your back at it. Well done on your loss this week. 10lbs is loads, fab.

Groovie- That’s a lovely update, fast 800 sounds like its perfect for you.

Green - Glad your headache passed.

BCF - we have those fries over here, they are called rainbow fries and you can get them in Iceland. Never had them but I absolutely love carrot fries, shame they have been discontinued.

Pumper- Well done on your loss.

TiP - Well done on your loss, sounds like you’ve had a good week.

Borris- Sorry to hear about that. Honestly some crisps and a gin really won’t make any difference over the course of a week, don’t beat yourself up.

Icandothis- Welcome to the thread, I’ve not read the fast800 book so I can’t help you with that but I know BCF has been reading it so hopefully she can help you with that but il have a go at answering some of your questions from the 5:2 perspective.

3.	Non fast days (NFDs) you need to look at the TDEE calculator in the opening post to work out your TDEE calculation for you NFDs. Some of us use my fitness pal to work out calories consumed, it’s good as the barcode scanner is very easy. 

4.	Personally I eat meat every day even on FDs as I find it very filling. 

6.	Yes full fat everything. Yoghurt can be a pain to find full fat in some supermarkets if you prefer flavored. I love full fat Greek but my DH can’t stand it so he would buy flavored onken / yeo valley. 

I can’t drink plain water either, so I have either very diluted low calorie squash / flavored water.

It’s a very good way of life, not only for loosing weight but for maintaining the weight loss. And this group is so supportive.

Anyone fasting today with me?

Thanks for the replies, glad I posted.

Just prepared a whole post and wiped it off as I was about to send it.

Anyway, thinking about you all and wishing you a good day.
I have to start work now.

Hello, I'm new to this too and after not really ever following a specific diet before, I started the Fast800 on Monday and am fasting 16:8 or sometimes 15:9, depending on the day.

Ican - I'm going hard and keeping to 800 calories everyday. The first three days were tough but as the week's gone on, I am quite enjoying it- particularly because I've already seen some results (started at 73kg and am now 69). I've stuck mainly to soups, stir fry's and salads with chicken, white fish or mackerel. The soups are a bit heavy on the carbs but Soupologie do some good ones.
Good luck and am hoping joining this thread will help keep my momentum going.

I think carbs get a bit of a bad press tbh
'carby' foods are ok. the humble potato and even bread and pasta have a good amount of protein too. so they are good for you if you keep portions sensible.
due to my liver issues I had to go easy of fat, so 0% yoghurt, low fat cheese. lots of veg and some carbs kept me going.

Welcome, @Icandothis2019 🙂
All you need to know is in the OP, especially under "How to Start"

Almost everyone here does 5:2, since this is thread #82 and fast800 has just been released

There are significant differences between Fast800 and 5:2,
so you can decide which suits you better:
^
+ Fast 800 is daily low carb, i.e. it also restricts the types of food on FDs and NFDs
whereas^
on 5:2 you have whatever reasonably healthy WOE you like:^
your "normal" food / ethnic / Mediteranean / veggie / vegan / WW / paleo .....

• because of this, Fast800 enables 800 FDs
  whereas 5:2 works best with 500 FDs (women) / 600 (men) unless you have a high TDEE, 2400+
  i.e. young, tall, intense exerciser - and probably male

• On both fast 800 and 5:2^
  Do NOT eat back exercise calories on FDs or NFDs via gadgets

However, 5:2 allows exercise calories to be considered via TDEE on NFDs only

• On FDs, "banned" are:
  alcohol, junky food - which means no cake, biscuits, choc, sweets etc or crisps, deep-fried foods
  We also recommend against fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals since these are high sugar and likely to spike insulin, hence increasing hunger and hinding fat-burning

• On NFDs, eat what you like within reason
  Just remember these are "maintenance" days, so not "all you can eat" days

For best results, keep 5:2 healthy habitson NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, NEVER snack / graze between meals,
sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

So to answer your other questions:

• Fast800 has strict about keeping to daily "low carb Mediteranean"
  which is basicallystandard low carb (no starches, no added sugar)
  Differences are:
  Mosely encourages fish not just meat
  and recommends that most days you have peas / beans / lentils to help stabilise blood sugar
  ans also full fat Greek yoghurt

• 5:2 has NO rules about the amounts of protein / fat / carbs
  You have the freedom to choose that is reasonably healthy and works for you

If you really like guidelines, then
aim to average within TDEE on NFDs, so you don't eat back the FD deficit

Check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity lvel lower than they think

• Meat / poultry is fine on NFDs or FDs.
  Fish is especially recommended as it is so healthy and even more filling

• Those bags of oats you buy will be "rolled" oats - this phrase is often used for USA readers
  It means avoid instant porridge, since this is more processed and often with added sugar, hence doesn't keep you full for long.
  The oats you buy require cooking in a pan, so they would be fine

• Low fat products are often less nice and often have added sugar too,
  or artificial sweeteners, which can also raise insulin and change your gut bacteria to make it more difficult to lose.

Low fat products without added sugar or sweeteners are ok if you genuinely enjoy them as much

• Yoghurt:
  several of us love Skyr yoghurt, which is v low fat & low cal, but thick & creamy; the high protein makes it filling
  Several of us also love full fat Greek yoghurt
  I love both !

• cheese:
  Some reduced fat cheese is also just as nice as full fat
  So whatever you prefer

• milk:
  On FDs especially, unsweetened almond or cashew milk is a great low cal substitue for milk
  I love nut milk and rarely have cows milk even on NFDs, personal preference

However many prefer the flavour of cows milk
If you do, consider skimmed milk on NFDs, or have hot drinks without.

• for many other products, we usually just have smaller portions of the full fat if we enjoy it more.

Excuse all the bold

Those bags of oats you buy will be "rolled" oats or "steelcut" and they are fine

Thank you all for the help / advice especially @BigChocFrenzy, it's all very helpful.

Hi all I am an old timer on the 5:2. Have been doing it on and off for a few years now. Had been off over the last few months due to some huge issues in personal life but have decided to get back to it. Got to say it is harder to get back when you have been off. Am planning on having my first FD this week on Tuesday. And then another on Thursday. Haven't read much of the last few threads but just spotted a few familiar names - glad to see they are still going strong.

Welcome back, slinky
I hope the personal issues have been sorted ok now, so you can chill with us.

On any WOL, it's tougher to get back if you've fallen off the wagon for months
but you know you can do this and it works for you

Yo! slinkyme
how are you

Hi Slinky I fast Tuesday and Thursday too!

Morning all. Yesterday was a NFD and also ended up being a OMAD (one meal a day) as we went out for an unexpected lunch which was lovely and worth every single calorie. Another, more sensible, NFD today then FD tomorrow I think. Welcome home slinky

Morning all, a healthy NFD was had yesterday. And today shall involve a lovely (sensible) roast with plenty of veg.

Think I'm going for Monday and Thursday fasts this week looking at my diary.

Today I'm also planning a bit of self care, my reward for getting to my first 10lb - doing my nails and a face mask, can't wait

Welcome back slinky, I'm also a returner (multiple) and feel like I'm properly in the zone now... it's helped by thinking of it just one fast at a time until it felt natural again.

Welcome ican - bigchoc is an encyclopedia of useful fasting info!

Enjoy your non-food reward, MrD
and plan the reward for the next 10lb milestone 🙂

OMAD is a good tactic bug when you want to enjoy a special meal

Face feeling lovely, and nails looking it! It's gone very quiet today!

BigChoc how was your run yesterday? Hope everyone else is having a lovely weekend, I'm all good and ready to fast tomorrow

Hi guys I was out yesterday all day, surrounded by hot dogs and burgers!
Resisted again but could not get a meal any where. So when I came home I made eggs, bacon and mushrooms. And I was thrilled. Have been well under TDEE every day since I started.
Weigh day tomorrow and I'm off for a walk tonight with my pal!
Good luck to everyone fasting tomorrow!

@OoohMrDarcy
Your idea of a little non food related treat for every small milestone is a treat idea, I might Rob that.

I also made bread in a slow cooker today, and didn't eat any!

Had a nice walk in the sunshine today and a small sunday roast for supper
not particularly fasting, but just being back on the thread is making me eat
more mindfully

Well done on your eating habits NSV, cheee
Stay focused - it takes about a month for any new habit to become ingrained - but that's good progress.

It's usually quiet here at WEs, MrD
I enjoyed a lovely sunny WE here on the Rhine, thx and had pump class yesterday, spin class today.

I'm glad you enjoyed your non-food reward - now you look and feel really good, the best kind of reward

TiP It helps when you are in the (virtual) company of others who are also working on healthier habits

Cheese - if you have a fair bit to lose it helps break it down, a suggestion of the lovely bigchoc

TiP - The mindful eating is normally key isn't it!

Guys it's my weigh day today!
Cannot actually believe I have lost another 5lb, that's 10lb overall!
I am so happy to have started this.
I know that the losses want continue like this every week but it is so motivating.
I have set a Target for myself, I would like to lose 24lb by April 9th, which is when I fly to Australia for a 3 week holiday.
I calculated that estimating that I could post 2lb per week, which is the bare minimum.
So I am happy to have a Target set!

Congrats on your SV, cheee
Excellent start