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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
quackingduck222 · 05/07/2018 21:51

Pop - A loss is still a loss, and a inch loss of your waist is bloody fantastic. A inch is half a dress size. And well done on your early morning run. Absolutely amazing!
Ooh do you make your own clothes?

Cake - any amount of dry time is fantastic you may very well find this new WOL in courage’s you. BCFs posts about alcohol do stick after a while. I’ve gone from maybe twice a week to pretty much tee total I can probably count on one hand how many occasions in the last year I’ve drank.

Bloody hell bug that’s absolutely bloody amazing.

Smiled - I found B2B quite hard when I first tried but I think in my head I built it up to be worse than it was BUT I didn’t realize it’s 650 cals. Those extra 150 calls make a real difference. Try it, lots of posters on here do it as this lot are propped hard core.

BCF never heard of ESE I’ll look at that. I’ve seen a lot of body builders and fitness people are now swearing by 5:2/IF. Seems huge in America.

Well done calzone that’s fab.

Plus3 - How rude of them not to bring cake. But good for you and your FD tho.

43 - Being a apple may really skew those results but keep doing your measurements as you will see a reduction all over.

Oops FD fail and running fail. Will purspone until tomorrow as ran out of time today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/07/2018 07:12

Morning everyone, nfd yesterday and stayed within tdee (just) although I'd say half of those calories were alcohol I know it's really bad fd number 2 today and I'm starving (obviously because too many wines last night) but I will power through! Anyone else fasting today?

quacking hope you manage your fd and run Smile

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 06/07/2018 07:23

Star Star Star 89.8! Star Star Star

YESSSSSSSSSssssssss!!!!
So happy!!

Tonight I'm meeting a friend for dinner at a steak place, so I'll do my best to have a light day. Already had a small breakfast. And it looks like DD will be at home today - she has a funny tummy.

Iamblossom · 06/07/2018 07:25

Nice one @NoUnderpantsinSpace !

I wish the no alcohol message would work on me...Hmm

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 06/07/2018 07:25

Thanks for your b2b feedback ladies.

Iamblossom i'm liking the eat more loose less idea if the b2b and also getting it out the way Smile

Might try it next week!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 06/07/2018 07:26

What's the b2b cals for men if DH wants to do it too?

quackingduck222 · 06/07/2018 07:51

43 - Hope you’ve not got a sore head today. Good luck with your fast.

Well done on your SV no underpants. Enjoy your lovely meal out.

Smiled - yes it’s good to get it out the way in one go. For men’s B2B I’m going to make a educated guess at 750.
A woman’s guide for FD is 500 B2B 650 a mans FD is 600.
Is your DH also doing 5:2 with you?

plus3 · 06/07/2018 08:54

Morning all - another lb off (just ...don’t think I had been as disciplined with mfp all week which I think has showed..)
Have a feeling it’s going to go slowly now. I really want to get to 11st 10 as that will be a stone off. My goal is 10st 7 but it feels miles away.
Good luck to all you fasters today

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 06/07/2018 09:02

Thank you duck and blossom!
I am still technically obese (ugh, I hate that!) but breaking the 90kg barrier was my first mini goal. My next mini goal is around 87kg (I think... I need to double check what it is exactly) when I will be overweight and no longer obese.

My reward for this mini goal... hmmm I think a massage or a leg wax... (or both Grin!!) partly for holiday and partly for therapeutic reasons. I am so looking forward to seeing an 80 something instead of 90 something on the scales.

Well done to all the other fasters!!
Plus maybe you should change your name to minus? Wink

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/07/2018 09:54

yay well done nounder that's a fab SV and enjoy your meal out
Well done on your SV plus you will soon get there - enjoy Hmm your pampering

Luckily quacking i've only ever had about 2 hangovers in my entire life and as my DH says, I am clearly build for alcohol Grin so no headache at all, but I do have a rumbly belly - Subway chicken salad for lunch, and it can't come soon enough

badger82 · 06/07/2018 10:11

BCF yes I did do a B2B and then a FD Thursday, just for a boost as felt had plateaued.

Next week I'm going to go for FD Monday, mini Tuesday and then FD Thurs. do you think that's sustainable?

badger82 · 06/07/2018 10:12

I was 66 this morning so SV week on week but 0.5 up from Weds AM but kind of expected that as bound to be lightest after a B2B

plus3 · 06/07/2018 10:56

Smile Underpants the 3 is my DH,DS & DD so couldn’t possibly minus them!!!

Where is everyone’s weight going from? I have lost 10lbs and think it has gone from thighs/ waist as am back in some summer trousers that I couldn’t do up in April. None seems have gone from my boobs - they are still a whooping 34F.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/07/2018 11:12

plus i have lost 22lbs and noticed the same as you in that i've not lost anything off my cup size (i'm a FF) but i have gone down in the back. I would like to say its coming off my middle, and it is a little bit, I'm classic apple shape, but i think i feel it most off my bottom belly and hip area, when I lie on my side now i can feel my hip bone Grin I think middle will be the last to go if ever but in terms of clothes, i am smaller all over, so in smaller tops and jeans and dresses, but waist isn't as loose as I'd like it!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2018 11:14

Congratulations, underpants
Great milestone

43 Doing an FD with a thick day-after head is its own punishment Grin
Drink lots of water and glug a teasp Marmite

No official guide for men on b2b, smiled

My suggestion for men doing b2b:
have 800 cal FDs, or ⅓ TDEE if there TDEE is over 3,000.

The b2b is not from Mosely; it was developed - before his book - by Dr Michelle Harvie) for women only, because the research & human trials were funded by breast cancer charities specifically to reduce cancer risks in survivors.
Note: her work used a Mediteranean diet on all NFDs, so the risk reduction might not happen for "normal" Uk diet, other than the reduction associated with weight loss.

plus Where fat is lost first - and last - is very individual.
However, 5:2 is good at burning waist fat for most folk.
Also, on any WOE, thigh fat tends to be the most difficult to shift, so it goes last, if at all.

The healthy 5:2 rules help stay within TDEE if you forget / cba to mfp:
^NO snacking, NHS alcohol rules, sensible about treats& (1 portion only and not on every NFD), lots of water
^
badger^ Last week was OK as a 1-week boost
If you want to add a regular weekly mini-FD to your 2 FDs, then I recommend Saturday - your plan has only 1 NFD in 4 days, which is probably not sustainable.

Also, if you use the mini to compensate for not getting NFDs under control, it will not help your weight loss over the weeks.^
It only works in addition to improving NFDs, not instead of^

Similarly, 4:3 does not speed up loss for many folk, because they put off tacklng NFDs - in fact many unconsciously consume more on NFDs and eat back all the deficit of the extra FD.

OP posts:
badger82 · 06/07/2018 11:58

Thanks BCF, yes maybe a Sunday or Sat would work better. I have been MUCH improved on my NFDs by eliminating snacking so I think this might work

dovegrey18 · 06/07/2018 12:28

Just checking in waves to everyone I think it's been about 3 months since I've parked 5:2 as my health hasn't been too great. I've been checking in periodically and successfully maintaining at just under 9 stone but I think I'm back into old habits of snacking all day long etc and I've put on a couple of lbs! Checking into the thread and reading really makes me more mindful around food so here I am!

On the health front I am being investigated for auto immune diseases. For those who know me, my symptoms have always been put down to some major surgery I had several years ago now. However the medics are now considering that there could be something else at play; if not then it will likely be diagnosed as fibromyalgia / chronic fatigue. It would be good to have a diagnosis so that I can find something that works for me.

I must say, that I feel I have much more widespread inflammation when I'm not fasting. Fasting really goes give wonderful health benefits and I look forward to jumping back on soon hopefully and get down to 8 stone.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/07/2018 12:48

BCF I don't have a thick head, I am fortunate or maybe not that alcohol doesn't really give me hangovers Grin I am just hungry, but just had chicken salad and a couple of apricots so I should be fine for a bit
And marmite - yuk - no thank you Envy

dovegrey18 · 06/07/2018 13:12

Thanks fortythree

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2018 18:26

Welcome back, dove
Sorry to hear you've been poorly; Thanks I hope the doctors can track down the cause asap & zap it.

In the meantime, can you join us on the 5:2 healthy habits:
no snacking, nhs alcohol limits, lots of water & veg, cut right back on fizzy drinks (incl diet ones), be sensible with sugary treats (one portion and only on say 3 days), plenty of sleep.

Also, try to keep your eating within a 12-hr period, i.e. daily 12:12, which may help your symptoms, if FDs did
Don't stress, but join in when you can and post how you are doing.

Well done on No Snacking NSV, badger A good step for weight & health.
With 3-4 meals, nothing between, your days become more "fasting-dominated," instead of being dominated by insulin / fat storage.

< breathes Marmite fumes over 43 > Grin

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/07/2018 18:52

Ooh you are a meanie bcf Grin

Fd closing on 563, slightly higher than it should be but I needed a latte to get me through the afternoon.

Hope everyone else is having a good Friday

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2018 21:55

Well done, 43 and any other Friday fasters

OP posts:
calzone · 06/07/2018 22:49

Fasting today 💪🏻💪🏻

Egg salad but with interesting things in it like gherkins and light cheese on it.

Borris · 06/07/2018 22:53

Just checking in. I’ve done day 2 of a 7day waist trim you tube video. It’s only 7 minutes. The first day I thought it was quite easy but my abs ached so much today that it must have done something. Anyway I’m definitely going to the 7 days and see what happens

cakegoblin · 07/07/2018 06:15

B2B fast days completed on around 500 and around 650 respectively - sooo glad I have pulled myself back from holiday mode, at one point last week I didn't know for sure if I would be strong enough. Thanks for the support everyone.
Borris I will be interested to hear how well your waist vid works!

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