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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2018 22:38

Sending healthy vibes to you and lo, badger Thanks
Mainline Bovril & also water

Well done, smiled

Move on, goblin, plan and nail your b2b

Next NFD, remember NHS guidelines; one gin is for taste, any more is habit

  • maybe even go dry the rest of July ?
and re cream: take 2 tbsp for a portion, then put the rest in the frig before you start eating
OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 05/07/2018 00:04

Kitchen closed at 477. Quite pleased after yesterday's blip to be back in the realm of "I control the food I eat. The food does not control me" or whatever the correct wording of my new mantra is :D

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 05/07/2018 07:49

Weighed in this morning and have lost 2.5lbs this week Grin
Just wanted to share. Love this WOE! Good luck fasters Brew

quackingduck222 · 05/07/2018 07:59

Borris - honestly try not to worry as it’s just a little blip. These things happen. I had a 1lb blip myself this week. I went back to MFP the next day to work out calories and I was well under TDEE and couldn’t explain it for the life of me.

Calzone I hope you had a great FD.

43 - I hope you had a good FD and the cravings weren’t too bad for you. Thanks, I’m quite delicate and don’t take well to the heat.

Pop - well done on entering them into MFP that’s great in itself. We can’t be perfect all the time, it would make a miserable diet if we were. Have a great BBQ.

No idea fantastic job on resisting everything!

Friendly also big well done to you for resisting baked goodies.

43 - well done on your FD. Nail painting is a good one as you can’t snack with wet nails as it will smudge them.

Honky - your plan sounds perfect. Holidays are the occasion we should let our hair down. No point being miserable on holiday. And this WOL is not about being miserable. So you go and enjoy and have a fabulous time but schedule a FD for when your back.

Badger - I really hope you both recover really soon. Flowers

Cake - good for you for getting straight back on the horse. Good luck for your B2B.

Well done on a smashing FD pop.

This writing stuff on here is working great for me, I’ve ran 2 days in a row and even further than intended. I will be attempting 4 Miles today. 10k next week so need to be back upto that distance again. Not bothered by the times and getting a PB just completing is my aim.
FD here today.

Good luck to all the fasters and B2Bers.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2018 08:30

Well done on your SV, smiled
You are in the fasting groove

Good FD, pop

Good luck on your 10k next week, Duck I totally agree: in this heat, aim for finishing comfortably, not a pb

With any unexpected scales blip, just remember that weight can vary naturally a couple of lb even during a single day.
So look at the 3-week trend to get the real picture.

Also, in your case - going by waist especially - your ideal weight now is probably about 8 st 4 lb, so you would tend to have more variation than most, as soon as you have a couple of days off plan.
Gradually allowing your Happy Weight Range to rise to between 8st 2 and 6lb, would probably make it easier to maintain without having to be so watchful.

If your gym had a Bodytrax machine for bodyfat % - not an unreliable cheapo - this is the ideal way to tune HWR.
Without that, a good guide is not to let waist / height go below 0.36, but ideally aim for 0.36 - 0.45.

Everyone else: don't panic at these numbers ! Getting below 0.5 is the really important 1st step
Anything beyond depends on the individual bod - duck 's bod just suits the lower range.

OP posts:
HLBug · 05/07/2018 08:42

Gotta love a B2B + Post TOTM combo - down to 8st 9lbs today, whoop! I was 8st 13.5lb on Monday pre B2B and pre start of TOTM. So it just goes to show that it can make a big difference!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/07/2018 09:10

excellent SV smiled
wowee bug

Good luck on your race quacking

BCF apologies if you've already posted it, but how do i work out my ratio? Do i literally divide height by waist? dons dunces cap and sits in corner Grin

quackingduck222 · 05/07/2018 09:18

Thanks BCF. Yeah timings have gone out the window now. Last time I had a blast on the 10k and the photos came back with me smiling I actually looked happy and that’s worth more to me than a PB.

Not got a bodytrax machine my gyms in my garage Grin

My weight naturally is now falling at about 8 stone or a smidge over goes up over the week then falls back to just over 8 on a FD. But I’m pushing my boundaries of TDEE active TDEE is 1800 but this week I’ve been up at about 2200 and had a couple of small losses with that. I’m really pleased as I was so worried I’d be stuck on 1400 forever.

BCF Have you heard of Dr Aseem Malhotra? He caught my attention this week as he is pushing his new med diet with a 24 hour fast per week of evening meal to evening meal the next day.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 05/07/2018 09:48

Sigh. Weighed in and only down .2 kg. I woke up with the sun at 5 and couldn't get back to sleep so I think I'm really just a bit down because of that. I have a lot of nsv I should be celebrating (waist has dropped almost an inch after staying around the same place for over a month), I went running this morning before the world woke up, I finished sewing a dress and I'm really proud of how it turned out.

And instead I'm moping over the scales.

bah. maybe I should just take a nap.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/07/2018 10:43

pop it is a loss... look at the last 3 or 4 weeks and what is the total that you've lost?

Excellent NSVs though, I'd love to be able to make my own clothes Smile

cakegoblin · 05/07/2018 10:48

Thanks for the good thoughts forty and quacking and bcf that is great advice, thank you. Several events and family hols coming up so I can't be totally dry for July but I might do the first week of Aug and the first week of Sep for example - it can only help can't it? Might work to make it a monthly thing.

And I won't be having any more cream - just got it in for a recipe for someone else and had extra so made an Eton Mess for the kids and ate too much. Nope, I am now on my Official Planned FD so drinking a black coffee, got some new herbal tea for next tea break. Dinner is made for family tonight to avoid temptation for me. Planning is everything!

Think it's TOTM which might explain some stuff too. Speaking of which Bug that is a great SV, very inspiring.

Pop - I bet a quick forty winks will really sort you out, do it if you can!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 05/07/2018 10:52

I have a couple of questions about b2b...

Is it harder?
Do you loose quicker?
How many calories each day?

Thanks Smile

Iamblossom · 05/07/2018 11:44

Smiled - it is harder at first for some I guess but I prefer to get them over and done with if I am doing two. Its 650 cals per day. My weight after a b2b is lower than my weight after 1 fd.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2018 13:35

Well done on a motivating SV, bug
You stayed focused, despite any worries about totm bloat.

smiled Day 2 can be very hard. It can help to do 500 the first day and 800 the 2nd, which works because you start FD2 already fasted

The most important factors in deciding b2b vs single FDs:

  • sustainability, because even the best system is no good if you can't manage omaftually do,it
  • NFDs, because 5 NFDs in a row may be a problem to keep sensible for those who struggle
  • your personal preference & weekly schedule

Well done on your waist NSV, pop That's lost bodyfat
As I've posted, look at the scales trend over 3 weeks, to smooth out any blips
If you are losing fat, the scales normally catch up eventually

I've vaguely heard of it, duck That just sounds like a copy of Brad Piilon's ESE (Eat Stop Eat), with daily healthy Mediteranean eating bolted on.

Healthy eating, no junk, usually boosts weight & fat loss.
So it would be an improvement on Pilon's WOE - if people actually stick to the daily Mediteranean.
BUT
Pilon's scheme works well for male bodybuilders who want to maintain, but since he allows a "normal" supper, most women and / or non-athletes - with much lower TDEEs - would struggle to actually lose on this.
Any form of OMD (One Meal per Day) - without limits - usually only works for the initial period and sometimes even causes gain.

For those who maintain with 1or 2 weekly 800 cal FDs, ESE is a good alternative maintenance WOE which I sometimes include in the list - just have the 800 for supper those days.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2018 13:42

43 W/H Ratio & How to Measure Yourself

Waist / Height
is literally measuring your waist in the way described below and dividing by your height (consistent units !)

Suggested time:

  • Every xx weeks (your choice), but on the NFD after FD2, first thing in the morning before you have eaten or drunk anything.
  • Good time to weigh, too.

First ntbo, do NOT
. suck anything in
. or clench your buttocks
. or take a deep breath and hold it
. or pull the tape tightly- it's not a corset !

  • Picture shows where to place tape
  • Make sure tape is horizontal around your body - not sloping - for waist or hips

Waist
. women - the narrowest point, usually about 2" above the navel
. men - around the navel

Hips (women only)
. Choose the widest hip measurement.
. This position may be above or below the hip bones. Exactly where - may change as you lose fat.

Thigh
. Always measure the same thigh (left or right) or measure both
. Choose the widest measurement.

Neck (only if you want to do bodyfat calculation)
. Place the tape at the narrowest point of the neck, sloping slightly down to the front.
. The tape is NOT horizontal for this

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead
OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/07/2018 13:57

thanks BCF i will do this properly after FD2 but just did it v v quickly with a piece of string and it came out as 0.58 Sad being the classic apple shape I think this is going to be a difficult result to get!!!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 05/07/2018 15:00

Thanks guys, I just had a nap (very indulgent it feels like, but I really wasn't functioning) and do feel much better now. Sorry for the whinge :D

calzone · 05/07/2018 15:15

Fasting was good yesterday.

NFD today. Still on plan despite goodies all around me......

B.....All Bran with grapes, nectarine and Skyr yoghurt
L....prawn salad
D....will be spaghetti with ham and mushrooms and salad

Thanks for all the support. 💪🏻💪🏻

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/07/2018 15:57

Busy day today and so far a good FD.
Place marking and will catch up properly later Smile

plus3 · 05/07/2018 16:07

Fasting at work ....brilliant. This is my breakfast break at 4pm!! Nobody brought us any cake & I barely have time to sit down ...

BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2018 16:39

Excellent NFD plan, calzone
That is how to form good longterm habits

Whinge away, pop
We share our worries here, as well as our victories

Sounds like your FDs are going very well, underpants, plus
Stay focused and you've nailed it

Don't worry, 43
Take it step by step, in your own time

OP posts:
calzone · 05/07/2018 17:14

So proud of myself and still on plan.

No snacking either 💪🏻💪🏻

badger82 · 05/07/2018 20:48

Kitchen closed on 580, looking forward to hopefully a SV tomorrow AM

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/07/2018 21:30

Kitchen closed around 550. Salad and egg for lunch and porridge for dinner - possibly an odd choice but it’s what I really fancied Smile
I put a blob of skyr on the top for some added protein. It’s been a very good, low sugar week!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2018 21:50

Good FDs, badger, underpants

Well done on your No Snacking NSV, calzone
and on your Low Sugar NSV, underpants

badger Did you do a b2b Mon+Tue, as well as the FD today ?
If so, that sounds like you are overdoing the fasting

Also, your previous SV was only yesterday, so you may or may not get another one tomorrow as well - sometimes scales loss is delayed a few days, so don't get discouraged if that happens.

OP posts: