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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Clearskies99 · 28/07/2018 08:29

Well done new york and 43.

We all go astray sometimes boys just get straight back to it and don't beat yourself up. Sorry about the stresses and upsets -sounds tricky.

No snacking is SOOOO helpful isn't it Iam

OMG BCF you must be melting. How frustrating for you not to be able to do all your usual gym sessions, etc. Rhine walks do sound lovely though. Hope you get rain soon, we had cool wind here last night which was lovely!

All going really well here, just wanted to post as off for 2 weeks holiday. Am keeping on track with what feels like permanent changes to how, what and when I eat. Lose 2 lbs most weeks, this week had an unexpected Whoosh of 4 1/2 lb off Smile. I'm still very overweight but have lost so much since April that I feel and look a million times better, and really believe with 5:2 I can get back to 9 stone ish eventually.

So glad I found this thread, I know I'm not posting much but am rooting for everyone with all our different goals and motivations Smile

Have a good weekend everyone, keep glugging that water and NOOO snacking!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 10:18

Wow clear you are doing amazingly well, definitely in the 5:2 swing of things Grin

quackingduck222 · 28/07/2018 10:50

43 - that’s awesome a tattoo and tequila sounds good. Will numb the pain anyway Grin

StirCrazy - I usually pretty good on the drinking front. Interested in the electrolyte drinks tho, heard they are good for sports. You will get there with the alcohol I’m sure.

BCF 37oc jezz I couldn’t cope with that. That is hot hot hot.

43 - well done on your FD and resisting the beer.

Well done maz on your FD and resisting all the naughtiness at the fayre.
Maz, what about a YouTube class? Loads of class videos on there for whatever takes your fancy.

Borris - well done, and good luck for your mini.

DropZone- well done on your 2lbs loss that’s great? And sorry to hear about your car.

Boys - don’t feel bad, these things happen. It’s a fresh day today.

NewYork- well done on your loss. I think sometimes if we’ve been a bit naughtier than we would like it’s good to pull it back a bit. A 3rd FD never worked for me but a mini or a lighter meal seemed to even it out.
A bad meal doesn’t equal a bad week, it can be saved.

43 - yesss well done on your 2lb loss.

Clearskies- wow a 4.5lbs loss, that’s amazing. 5:2 is definitely working for you. Well done.

FD today, ate far too much last night. This week has been a funny old week scales wise in that I’ve lost but until today not gained. I really should of gained as I had a particularly heavy meal Thursday and a few treats have slipped in. It’s strange how it goes as other times I gain when I really shouldn’t.

Good luck to all of the fasters today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 11:28

Thanks quacking unfortunately the tequila is for after the tattoo... but actually they don't hurt too much.

Our bodies are odd eh but you are obviously not eating back too many calories, I can't wait to be at maintenance like you but yes, difficult to second guess a good from a not so good week in terms of weight loss / gain. .. our bodies are strange aren't they? Go figure Grin

Hope you have a good fd today.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2018 11:50

Congrats on your whoosh, clear You are losing at an excellent rate.
So good to hear how well you are feeling

Enjoy your holiday and remember before you go: write down the date of your 1st FD after you return
Have a break from fasting, but remember your permanent 5:2 healthy habits so you don't have holiday weight to lose:
NO snacking, NHS alcohol limits, lots of water & veg, sensible about treats

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 28/07/2018 16:17

I just realised that DH and I did two proper fasts last week.
Its so habitual to not eat during the day on Monday and Thursday and just have an omelette for supper I did not even notice.

Weight holding steady at BMI of 22 which will do for now.
Shocking that my body fat is still 25% at that level though !

Iamblossom · 29/07/2018 07:22

Morning all, and happy Sunday, cloudy dark rainy and very windy here today. Weird to wear jeans yesterday!

After three days of basic gluttony after a nice surprise on the scales on Thursday morning, and a generally debauched holiday week with no fasting I am planning on a clean day today with lots of water, lots of exercise to set me up for a fast tomorrow.

Posting here keeps me honest!

@Ta1kinpeace I would love to fast and not even notice. My grazing habit prevents that at the moment, even on fast days I start clucking for small snacks.

Iamblossom · 29/07/2018 07:23

Have three weeks Until my next holiday so need to keep on the straight and narrow and tackle my snacking.

Iamblossom · 29/07/2018 07:24

Tackling Snackling? There's gotta be legs in that for a thread title...Grin

The struggle is real people.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 07:44

TiP For your age especially, 25% is ok, so long as you keep within the 0.5 waist / height ratio.

What raises the % bodyfat, especially round the waist: sugar, alcohol

I know you don't have a sweet tooth, so if the fat % bothers you, then I suggest you move to the NHS alcohol guidelines:
work on the weekends and say have a glass on 4-5 nights per week

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 08:01

blossom After an SV, develop the habit of a non-food reward
It's fine to have occasional feasts, but these should be celebrations and special social occasions, not as a scales reward.
That change would help keep weight stable.

You are zeroing in on your snacking / grazing habit, which is great.
However, do make that permanent - including on holidays - not just something you do before hols.
Otherwise it remains a habit
You can still enjoy treats, just have them as part of a meal.

Are you genuinely hungry between meals, rather than just snacking for entertainment ?
If so, as iirc you don't eat much sugary / high carb food, you probably need to boost portion size of protein & veg.

Nuts are healthy within moderation - especially for those underweight they are excellent calorie-dense food to boost weight.
For those who are watching their weight, aim for 20-30g per day - unflavoured - and measure out the portion in advance, then put away the bag.

If you want rice cakes, turn them into one of your 4 meals by adding say cheese or ham and some salad veg.
On their own, they do sound rather joyless diet snacks.

OP posts:
Boysmomma · 29/07/2018 08:07

Thanks @BCF great tips!

And thanks everyone firmly back on the wagon as of yesterday, and weigh in this morning down 1.3kg Grin. Quite pleased!

As a reward we're all going to an indoor play area, thanks rain Angry, but the boys are thrilled and I'll have to run around after them. Win win.

Have a great Sunday everyone!

Iamblossom · 29/07/2018 08:07

Thanks BCF.

Yes I snack on what other people consider boring stuff, in an attempt to stay within tdee. And yes I only eat when I am genuinely hungry. Rice cakes, boiled egg, water crackers, zero fat yoghurts, carrots.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 09:04

blossom I don't eat any food I find boring or unappetising.
Life's too short ! and I see no point in wasting calories like that

zero-fat yoghurt and rice cakes do sound diety & joyless and rice cakes are fairly empty calories.
Enjoy full-fat Greek yoghurt as a meal or big pud, with berries & flaked almonds
The boiled egg could be moved to breakfast or tea and the carrot to finish off a meal

I enjoy my meals, nothing between
No snacks means I can have more of what I really enjoy

You are hungry between meals, so boost portion sze and have more of what you enjoy at mealtimes
Moving the nuts to be a starter or pud for your main cause would help lower the meal's GL and make it last longer

Remember my posts with Dr Jung's graphs on insulated-dominated days with snacks vs traditional fasting-dominated days, as humans lived for millenia.

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 29/07/2018 09:40

Morning all!

Enjoying the rain here, it’s a delicious respite after weeks of relentless heat. We went to the seaside yesterday and whilst I avoided cake and ice creams I did have scampi and chips for tea and actually felt quite sick and overly full after.

It’s a NFD here, but I’m hoping to keep it fairly clean, lots veg, fruit and good protein. I’m planning a major declutter whilst it’s cooler which fills me with both excitement and trepidation!

FD tomorrow. x

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/07/2018 10:15

Morning everyone and well done on your sv boys

Hope you get your 'snackling' under control iam Grin

Had a good day food wise yesterday, enjoyed sharing a starter and didn't finish my main, no pudding unless you count the tequila and a wee bit too much booze but not so bad considering.

Nfd today, skipped breakfast, will have a salad for lunch and having Greek chicken and potatoes for dinner with green beans and asparagus, can't wait... yum!

Hope everyone has a good day, pouring down here

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 13:31

FD here. Anyone else ?

Temp - thank goodness ! - finally dropped from 37-38 to 29C, so I did about 75 mins lifting & abs at the gym
Blimey, I felt very creaky after not being able to train for 2 weeks
In fact not being able to do my full program for over a month

I'm seriously sleep-deprived, as the temperatues rises in the evening and only gets down to mid-20s for a frew hours in the night.
WIll rise to 32C later today and next week will be 36C Confused

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 13:32

43 Please pass on some of your lovely rain Envy

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 29/07/2018 19:10

36C? Oh my! We bought a second hand air con unit years ago and it has been a godsend this summer.

Thanks for the juice/fizzy drink info BC. I’ll try to stick to water and black coffee and save other drinks as treats.

Weighed myself on Fri & the damage is a stone. Period arrived today though and I’ve had a FD & 2 good NFDs. Hoping much of the gain is water and undigested food.

Tomorrow I’m taking the kids camping. I’m the only adult so it should be easy to avoid the usual wine and high cal snacks!

Your tattoo sounds all the more special because your DH designed it 43. Hopefully it’s not too sore getting it done and it heals quickly! I got a tattoo on my thigh last week and it didn’t hurt nearly as much as the last one. I must be getting tougher in my old age!

Hockneypool · 29/07/2018 20:07

Evening all. It’s lovely to hear how everyone is doing.

Feeling tired but pleased with myself tonight. Completed the London ride Prudential ride 46. All week it looked liked it would be hot and sunny. Don’t think I have been so cold and wet in a long time. But I have a fabulous medal for my efforts.

Travelling home tomorrow and then fast day on Tuesday.

Iamblossom · 29/07/2018 20:29

Wow well done hockney!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 21:55

Congratulations on completing your ride, hockney
Wow, look what you can do when you set your mind to it - believe in yourself !

OP posts:
DaisyandTim · 29/07/2018 22:35

Hello, just back from holidays a couple of days ago and checking in. An almost 3 week holiday equated to an 8lb gain Shock but I’m one successful FD down already and next one due for tomorrow.
Shall try and catch up now but hope everyone’s had a good few weeks.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2018 23:43

Welcome back, Daisy
Don't worry - a few of those lb holiday gain are usually just undigested food, plus retained water from excess carbs.
So, nail your FDs, focus on the NFDs and the scales should shift by next week

OP posts:
Crashbumpthud · 30/07/2018 07:23

Hi all

Wishing you all a lovely Monday. Checking in for the first FD of the week. Smile