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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/07/2018 10:50

I have a few so I'm adding one to my top of my back that my DH designed for my birthday - he is rather clever at arty stuff - it is a crow with a skull and some roses, not to everyone's taste I know but I love it Grin

what are the electrolyte drinks?

Iamblossom · 27/07/2018 11:43

These are the hydration drinks I use, have lots of nice flavours

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead
BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2018 11:57

Good for you with the water, duck especially in this heat
Still 37C here < whimpers >

Maz Try to cut out the flavoured fizz, even diet ones, or at leat cut down to maximum of 1 x 330 ml can per day

Mosely's "Clever Guts Diet" book brought together all the latest reseach on this topic
and the evidence is that diet fizz changes the gut bacteria over time, so that you tend to put on more weight

If you like fizz, then have fizzy water (unflavoured), add ice and a slice of fruit.
Put in a cool pretty glass with a straw and enjoy

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2018 11:59

I posted a while back that Diet COke / Diet Pepsi are absolutely the worst fizzy drinks, because the additional cokey chemicals increase the risk of kidney problems and bone deficiencies.

If you really want a can of diet fizz, then go for lemonade/ Sprite sweetened with Splenda

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 27/07/2018 12:26

So it's lunchtime and I have had breakfast and no snacks since. Would usually always have fruit about 10ish on a nfd. This is new territory

BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2018 12:55

Well done, blossom
Have that fruit for your lunch pud

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/07/2018 13:02

excellent work iam Grin

Stircrazyschoolmum · 27/07/2018 14:24

Ooh! The tat sounds very cool.. clever hubbie! I like the Zero lime and lemon or the nunn strawberry lemonade drinks. They come in tablets and fizz in water. Really good for hangovers too!! Not sure if they negative impact gut bacteria but I have a long way to go in giving up diet fizz.. need to work on lowering alcohol consumption first!

plus3 · 27/07/2018 14:25

Ooh well done iam that is a major breakthrough!
I have just rejoiced at finding a mini twix in the treat tin (I genuinely thought it was empty)
Having with a cup of tea straight after lunch & will dutifully log it!

Stircrazyschoolmum · 27/07/2018 14:26

Pushed post too soon! Well done Iam and thank you for your ongoing support BCF.. you are an expert at this!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/07/2018 17:53

Ugh that train journey was hell, all I want is an ice cold beer Sad but I will stick with pint of squash. Turkey omelette and salad for dinner in a bit then paint my toenails and an early night for me. Kitchen will close at 502 Smile

How is everyone else getting on?

MazDazzle · 27/07/2018 20:03

That’s interesting BC. What about no added sugar diluting juice? Is that in the same category as fizzy drinks?

Well done forty.

Managed today’s FD. Had nothing on the picnic, or at the fair and saved myself for dinner, which was chicken skewers with peach, basil and mozzarella salad.

I find it really tough to eat well without exercising. When I exercise it motivates me to make the right food choices. I’m now down to only one class a week! It’s depressing.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/07/2018 20:17

High five maz Grin well done, your tea sounds lovely...

Re: could you manage to do some exercise at home if you can't get to a class?

Borris · 27/07/2018 20:50

Checking in. My guests have gone. I’m hoping I’ve been mindful enough. Planning a mini tomorrow and then my normal b2b FDs on Monday and Tuesday. As I have my holiday coming up in 10d. Eek

DropZoneOne · 27/07/2018 20:52

Our 5:2 FD mantra:
"I can have it tomorrow"

And I did Grin 250 calories for 60g. It was the tiniest slice, I'd normally scoff double that. No wonder the weight went on, today I had the cake as pudding but in the past I'd have had it as an afternoon snack. Blush

Today is currently 100 cals over TDEE (cake plus halloumi burger for dinner, should have skipped half the bun and the mayo, MFP is really opening my eyes here!) but I've been for a run and that's 300 calories.

I really want a glass of wine (90 cals) because I bumped my car in Tesco car park earlier whilst arguing with DD (10 going on 15). Is that just undoing all my hard work or is it ok because of the exercise calories, as long as it's not every day?

to everyone and welcome to maz and daily

newyork keep going, I sts for 2 weeks despite exercising every day, alternating walking and running, and 2FD a week. This week, 2lbs off, so it does catch up. Did you take measurements? On my non-moving 2nd week, I measured instead and had lost 5cms in a month and that motivated me to keep going as well as reassurance from others that it did happen sometimes.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2018 22:24

Maz Very diluted juice won't have the artificial sweeteners that change gut bacteria.
I recommend you squeeze your juice fresh, so that you can control how much fruit - hence natural sugar - you are getting
e.g. squeeze just 1 orange and dilute with a jug of water
That's very different to a single glass of undiluted juice, which probably has sugar from 3-4 oranges

However, it's better to eat the whole fruit, with its fibre and drink water afterwards, especially if you are subject to sugary cravings.

Eating calories is much more filling than drinking them, so for juice, keep to that 1 portion of fruit
Many people gain weight / have problems keeping within TDEE, because their drinks take up too many calories

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2018 22:29

drop Many folk who are not progressing have been shocked by an mfp reality check.
However, no need to mfp longterm, just until you have retrained your "normal"

Well done on sticking with your FD, 43 and making a good choice

OP posts:
Boysmomma · 28/07/2018 06:54

Hey everyone! Thanks BCF I'll do that Smile and for the advice on the drinks!

@43 that tattoo sounds amazing, always wanted a tattoo but much more of a pin cushion than a canvas!

My b2b went weel 621 on the 2nd night, but I ended on a bad note last night. All started well, went out for lunch specifically to a place that gives calorie info on the menu. But also put the ingredients into MFP just in case. Then picked up 2DS from their dad (a day late Angry) Difficulties with STBEXDH an upset DS1 and we had a movie night (ate shit). I started out smart and but once I started I just kept going. Mini FD today I think get me back on track. Oh hindsight, you're fucking too honest.

Hope everyone else's weekend is starting off well!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 07:16

Well done borris on surviving house guests, so tricky.

Oh boys don't beat yourself up about it, it's happened, we've all been there more than once today is a fresh start. Good luck with your mini today Smile

newyorklover1 · 28/07/2018 07:38

You're all right I was just being hasty. After my third fast yesterday I've managed to lose a pound this morning based on last Saturdays weigh in. Saturday and Sunday were my blow outs and adding all the calories up of I hadn't done a third fast I wouldn't have lost this week. So at least I had a bad weekend and managed to still lose 1lb this weekGrin that's how I'm going to look at it anyway!

I'm going to have some chocolate tonight because I fancy some and keep within my tdee.

I have 4 more weeks until my next goal and 3lbs to get off so I think that's achievable!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 07:44

Was slightly hesitant to step on the scales in case it was a sts for the 3rd week in a row but I've lost 2lbs this week Smile

Need to be sensible with the food and alcohol today and tomorrow, we are going for a Mexican which is one of my faves, but last time I had too much rice, beans and tortilla type stuff I really suffered with my stomach so I need to keep that in mind.

Hope the scales are kind to any others weighing in today Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 07:46

Well done on your sv newyork

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2018 07:49

Newyork Many folk find that weekends undo all their hard work, so learn to keep to the 5:2 healthy habits, especially the no snacks, NHS alcohol limits

If you can get the weekends under control, you can stick to just the 2 FDs and progress more quickly.
3 FDs, unless it's only temporary to break a plateau , becomes a pain.
Also for maintenance : change your "normal eating & drinking" so you don't regain as soon as you reach goal

boys Don't worry, everyone slips up sometimes and scoffs too much rubbish.
The way to handle it is to stop as soon as you realise, i.e. don't say "sod it, the day is ruined anyway" - instead, limit the damage

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2018 07:49

Well done on your SVs, 43, newyork

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/07/2018 08:12

Thanks bcf and hope it's cooler for you today? We are having some much needed thunder and rain storms here in the UK and I've woke this morning to a lovely cool breeze. ... ah!!!